Better combo round II. Sobers & Marshall vs Sachin and Imran

[Johan]

Viv managed a great series in England even at the very end, Kallis could never.

 

[subshakerz]

Viv managed a great series in England even at the very end, Kallis could never.

Last series average was 65 for Kallis in England thanks to a mega knock.

 

[Johan]

Last series average was 65 for Kallis in England thanks to a mega knock.

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[OverratedSanity]

But is it equivalent to mid to high 30s?

I dunno, maybe a bit higher? It's hard to judge. If we look at other low 40s averaging batsmen in that Imran peak period in the 80s, like say David Boon, I'd say Boon was a better batsman quite easily wouldn't you agree? Would like to see which specialist batsmen of that era you think Imran was better than, it'd give a better gauge.

I don't really know the answer, my point was to illustrate that Imran's average in that period shows a slightly inflated view of his batting value (which I'm sure you agree as even you don't think he was as good as a specialist 50 average batsman). Whereas with Sobers, his peak numbers reflected his actual value pretty accurately because he was functioning as a frontline pacer for his team. The role you play as an all rounder and the output (n number of runs/wickets) matters a lot to me, and Sobers' output was much higher.

 

[ankitj]

I dunno, maybe a bit higher? It's hard to judge. If we look at other low 40s averaging batsmen in that Imran peak period in the 80s, like say David Boon, I'd say Boon was a better batsman quite easily wouldn't you agree? Would like to see which specialist batsmen of that era you think Imran was better than, it'd give a better gauge.

I don't really know the answer, my point was to illustrate that Imran's average in that period shows a slightly inflated view of his batting value (which I'm sure you agree as even you don't think he was as good as a specialist 50 average batsman). Whereas with Sobers, his peak numbers reflected his actual value pretty accurately because he was functioning as a frontline pacer for his team. The role you play as an all rounder and the output (n number of runs/wickets) matters a lot to me, and Sobers' output was much higher.

Looking at the list below, I'd say Imran was equivalent to Vengsarkar, Jones, Greenidge.

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[subshakerz]

Looking at the list below, I'd say Imran was equivalent to Vengsarkar, Jones, Greenidge.

We can debate how good he was in his peak but I think overall career the example I always give is Logie who played over 50 tests in the 80s as a specialist lower order bat for the WI and Imran was surely better than him. Hence I consider him a border specialist lower order bat.

 

[kyear2]

Sobers' 27 average with a frontline bowler's production (4WPM) and workload (more overs bowled per match than even Imran did, which is crazy) is better than Imran's 50 average as a lower order bat imo. Sobers was actually doing a proper very good specialist bowler's job at a very high level. Imran's batting though very good was obviously not actually nowhere near as good as the averages suggested. Genuinely don't think their secondary disciplines are that close. Sobers' workload and contribution to the team was on another level.

In this peak period, Sobers averaged 24 with 2 5fers in Australia, 27 with 2 5fers in England and averaged 25 in India. Overall 125 wickets in 33 tests @ 2.1 ER.

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Overall in that period, he was genuinely putting up better numbers that even good specialist bowlers like Graham McKenzie, Wes Hall and almost as good as Peter Pollock. Was arguably one of the 5-6 best bowlers in the world, Imran was never that level of output with the bat.

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Sobers just casually being as good a bowler as Jon Snow, one of the premier quicks at the time. I think people really underestimate this bowling peak if it's being compared to Imran's batting numbers. It's not that close imo.

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Basically all of that.

And peak isn't everything, but for that 3rd of his career, those 33 matches.

He averaged 63 with the bat, 27 with the ball while taking 125 wickets and snared 60 catches at nearly 2 a match.

That's phenomenal.

 

[kyear2]

Imran still had a RPI of 30 which to me is quite par for a lower order bat of the 80s.

What was his rpm?

 

[subshakerz]

What was his rpm?

Why does that matter more than RPI?

 

[subshakerz]

Basically all of that.

And peak isn't everything, but for that 3rd of his career, those 33 matches.

He averaged 63 with the bat, 27 with the ball while taking 125 wickets and snared 60 catches at nearly 2 a match.

That's phenomenal.

How about outside his peak AKA most of his career?