Better combo round II. Sobers & Marshall vs Sachin and Imran

[subshakerz]

Over smaller slices, you can make arguments that Waugh/Lara were better, but for that 93-2002 period as a whole it's definitely Tendulkar imo.

Agreed.

 

[ankitj]

Sobers beats everyone on 2nd secondary. Why is this ignored?

He doesn't beat Imran on secondary skill. It's at best a tie, more likely Imran is better. And that's no shame. Imran is one of greatest. Stop making it sound like it's an insult for Sobers to be second to him on one skill.

 

[Johan]

I think Sobers vs Imran on secondary is a completely debateable matter with good arguments for either side, I think I'd personally go Sobers there too.

 

[ankitj]

Did Sobers average 24 with the ball for at least a 5-year period even with lower workload? Imran averaged 50 with the bat for a decade.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Did Sobers average 24 with the ball for at least a 5-year period even with lower workload? Imran averaged 50 with the bat for a decade.

Yeah but that stretch of average in particular is extremely inflated.

 

[subshakerz]

Yeah but that stretch of average in particular is extremely inflated.

Honestly even if we shave 5-7 points from it as an adjustment it's impressive.

 

[subshakerz]

Did Sobers average 24 with the ball for at least a 5-year period even with lower workload? Imran averaged 50 with the bat for a decade.

Sobers averaged 27 with the ball for around 30 of tests take nearly 4WPM. I would argue Imran was probably better for longer but I consider their secondary skills relatively equal.

 

[OverratedSanity]

Sobers' 27 average with a frontline bowler's production (4WPM) and workload (more overs bowled per match than even Imran did, which is crazy) is better than Imran's 50 average as a lower order bat imo. Sobers was actually doing a proper very good specialist bowler's job at a very high level. Imran's batting though very good was obviously not actually nowhere near as good as the averages suggested. Genuinely don't think their secondary disciplines are that close. Sobers' workload and contribution to the team was on another level.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Honestly even if we shave 5-7 points from it as an adjustment it's impressive.

It's impressive anyways but he had too few runs for the no of matches he played imo. Important contributions everywhere including a MoTS in India mostly on bat, but there's more runs you would expect from a mid 40s batsman as well, let alone 50 (ofcourse not accounting for bowling). He legit batted too few and a bit too low.

Sobers averaged 27 with the ball for around 30 of tests take nearly 4WPM. I would argue Imran was probably better for longer but I consider their secondary skills relatively equal.

IIRC, Sobers averages 30-31 with left arm fast and Chinaman. Was also the leading wicket taker in RoW vs ENG, which had Test status initially.

 

[Coronis]

If you are batting down the order and have quite a few not outs despite being team's best batsman, then your team just isn't getting the maximum output from you and is a detriment.

I don’t necessarily agree with this as a broad statement, whilst it may be accurate in some cases.

 

[OverratedSanity]

In this peak period, Sobers averaged 24 with 2 5fers in Australia, 27 with 2 5fers in England and averaged 25 in India. Overall 125 wickets in 33 tests @ 2.1 ER.

Bowling records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo.com

stats.espncricinfo.com

Overall in that period, he was genuinely putting up better numbers that even good specialist bowlers like Graham McKenzie, Wes Hall and almost as good as Peter Pollock. Was arguably one of the 5-6 best bowlers in the world, Imran was never that level of output with the bat.

Bowling records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo.com

stats.espncricinfo.com

 

[OverratedSanity]

Sobers just casually being as good a bowler as Jon Snow, one of the premier quicks at the time. I think people really underestimate this bowling peak if it's being compared to Imran's batting numbers. It's not that close imo.

 

[Sliferxxxx]

Genuinely confused why?? Don't think accumulating too many not outs like Chanderpaul is a good sign. If you are batting down the order and have quite a few not outs despite being team's best batsman, then your team just isn't getting the maximum output from you and is a detriment.

It's slippery slope because if you start taking out not outs for everyone, all of a sudden players with otherwise amazing stats don't look so hot: Sobers, Border, Waugh S, Viv, Smith, Ponting etc. Except for Sobers the above I believe would all be under 50 rpi.

 

[OverratedSanity]

This is exactly why I think Sobers shits all over Kallis as an all rounder too, by the way. Kallis was always the support act, Sobers had to do the heavy lifting as WI's primary wicket taker for a while.

 

[capt_Luffy]

In this peak period, Sobers averaged 24 with 2 5fers in Australia, 27 with 2 5fers in England and averaged 25 in India. Overall 125 wickets in 33 tests @ 2.1 ER.

Bowling records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo.com

stats.espncricinfo.com

Overall in that period, he was genuinely putting up better numbers that even good specialist bowlers like Graham McKenzie, Wes Hall and almost as good as Peter Pollock. Was arguably one of the 5-6 best bowlers in the world, Imran was never that level of output with the bat.

Bowling records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo.com

stats.espncricinfo.com

Sobers genuinely outbowled (or probs was as good as) Hall over that period.

 

[Sliferxxxx]

I always thought Sobers and Imran canceled each other out on primary and secondary skills. But then you factor in fielding and it's a no brainer: Sobers. No I don't factor in captaincy because that's not an individual skill and not everyone gets to captain but everyone does have to bat and field.

 

[capt_Luffy]

It's slippery slope because if you start taking out not outs for everyone, all of a sudden players with otherwise amazing stats don't look so hot: Sobers, Border, Waugh S, Viv, Smith, Ponting etc. Except for Sobers the above I believe would all be under 50 rpi.

I mean, I think Waugh, Border and Chanders should get criticised for their low RPI. Sobers not so much, mainly because it's still over 50, and he was bowling as much as a 4th bowler, and had genuinely Great Batsmen ahead for a majority, but he still isn't bulletproof to this critic. It's not so much not outs as it is batting position for me, hence not much to Viv, Smith or Ponting.

 

[h_hurricane]

Sobers' best argument against Imran in secondary skill is his insane workload and sheer volume of wickets. When he retired, he was among the top half a dozen or so bowlers in history in aggregate wickets, which is crazy for someone in his weaker skill.

Purely on secondary skill, I do think Miller (if we consider batting as his weaker skill) and Botham have a good case to be ahead of Sobers. Shakib possibly as well.

 

[subshakerz]

In this peak period, Sobers averaged 24 with 2 5fers in Australia, 27 with 2 5fers in England and averaged 25 in India. Overall 125 wickets in 33 tests @ 2.1 ER.

Bowling records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo.com

stats.espncricinfo.com

Overall in that period, he was genuinely putting up better numbers that even good specialist bowlers like Graham McKenzie, Wes Hall and almost as good as Peter Pollock. Was arguably one of the 5-6 best bowlers in the world, Imran was never that level of output with the bat.

Bowling records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo.com

stats.espncricinfo.com

Yes. The only caveat is 33 tests is quite a smaller duration of Sobers overall career whereas Imran's batting peak was well over a decade and 2/3rd of his career.

 

[subshakerz]

I mean, I think Waugh, Border and Chanders should get criticised for their low RPI. Sobers not so much, mainly because it's still over 50, and he was bowling as much as a 4th bowler, and had genuinely Great Batsmen ahead for a majority, but he still isn't bulletproof to this critic. It's not so much not outs as it is batting position for me, hence not much to Viv, Smith or Ponting.

Imran still had a RPI of 30 which to me is quite par for a lower order bat of the 80s.