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Waqar Younis vs Virat Kohli
- Thread starter DrWolverine
- Start date
Thala_0710
State Vice-Captain
Yup. Have him 5th. Could have him 4th above Akram or at best 3rd, but I wouldn't go even that far
Johan
International Captain
Yeah great batter but above Tendulkar is ridiculous
capt_Luffy
International Coach
Solely Tests:
Imran
Tendulkar
Muralitharan
Akram
Gavaskar
Sangakkara
Bumrah
Dravid
Kapil
Waqar
Ashwin
Jadeja
Miandad
Younis
Kohli
Kumble
Shakib
Inzamam
Sehwag
Chandrasekhar
Bedi
Laxman
Jayawardene
Yousuf
Mushtaq
Mankad
Herath
Fazal
Hazare
Hanif
Akhtar
De Silva
Pant
Dhoni
Engineer
Saqlain
Pujara
Anwar
Rizwan
Amarnath
Abbas
Vaas
Vengsarkar
Viswanath
Malik
Misbah
Azharuddin
Shami
Gupte
Prasanna
Imran
Tendulkar
Muralitharan
Akram
Gavaskar
Sangakkara
Bumrah
Dravid
Kapil
Waqar
Ashwin
Jadeja
Miandad
Younis
Kohli
Kumble
Shakib
Inzamam
Sehwag
Chandrasekhar
Bedi
Laxman
Jayawardene
Yousuf
Mushtaq
Mankad
Herath
Fazal
Hazare
Hanif
Akhtar
De Silva
Pant
Dhoni
Engineer
Saqlain
Pujara
Anwar
Rizwan
Amarnath
Abbas
Vaas
Vengsarkar
Viswanath
Malik
Misbah
Azharuddin
Shami
Gupte
Prasanna
capt_Luffy
International Coach
Tbf I think a tier should had been better, in which case he would be in the same with Inzi
I disagree, Waqar has been poor outside of prime of 20 tests.
Any other example of a bowler playing 40-50 tests without taking couple of 5-fers against non-minnows?
If you think it was reasonably good then we should have lots of examples of others bowlers playing 40-50 tests. After all lots of players are below world class level and all kinds of bowlers have played for different teams in the last 50-60 years.
Or,
Not apple to apple, but flipping it for batsman,
Any other example of a batsman playing 40-50 tests without scoring couple of tons against non-minnows?
We shouldn't have prolem in finding 20-30 reasonably good players in entire history if we think this level of performance can be termed reasonably good. Calling it reasonably good is just stretching it.
I was wrong, Waqar has 1 5-fer in 48 tests outside of his prime against non-minnows. Point remains the same, any reasoanbly good bowler can't play near 45-50 tests without taking couple of 5-fers against non-minnows. Similarly, any reasonably good batsman can't play 45-50 tests without scoring couple of tons against non-minnows.
If anyone has any doubt,
Entire list of bowlers with 45 tests with 1 or less 5-fers against non-minnows [ SL was a minnow till 1994, but keeping SL as opposition ]
Only 8 have played 45+ tests with 1 or less 5-fers in the last 50-60 years. Not a single full time bowler has played 45 tests without picking couple of 5-fers.
Waqar played 48 tests outside of his prime without picking couple of 5-fer against non-minnows. Calling it reasonably good is just stretching it too much.
I used 1 wickets per match to get rid of noise of bastmen or all rounders showing up in this list and still only those showed up. No bowler will be allowed to play 45-50 tests without picking couple of 5-fers. Similarly, no batsman will be allowed to paly 45-50 tests without scoring a ton. Just because Waqar playd 45-50 tests, it does not make it reasonably good.
If anyone has any doubt,
Entire list of bowlers with 45 tests with 1 or less 5-fers against non-minnows [ SL was a minnow till 1994, but keeping SL as opposition ]
Only 8 have played 45+ tests with 1 or less 5-fers in the last 50-60 years. Not a single full time bowler has played 45 tests without picking couple of 5-fers.
Waqar played 48 tests outside of his prime without picking couple of 5-fer against non-minnows. Calling it reasonably good is just stretching it too much.
I used 1 wickets per match to get rid of noise of bastmen or all rounders showing up in this list and still only those showed up. No bowler will be allowed to play 45-50 tests without picking couple of 5-fers. Similarly, no batsman will be allowed to paly 45-50 tests without scoring a ton. Just because Waqar playd 45-50 tests, it does not make it reasonably good.
Both produced ATG outputs for some peirod, but contrast is way bigger in case of Waqar. Counting for output against non-minnows,
Kohli output was ATG level for 75 tests.
Waqar's outout was ATG level for 20 tests.
Both were poor outside of that. I think recency bias is making fans overlook 75 tests ATG level output from Kohli.
Last edited:
Agreed. A batsmen will play more tests.
But when all said and done, Waqar's ATG output was 20 tests long against non-minnows. Kohli ATG output was 75 tests long. Even acounting for batsmen playing more tests than bowlers, Kohli ATG output stretch is way way bigger than Waqar.
Waqar wasn't good outside of his prime at all. No full time bowler (good, poor or horrible) in history has played 45-50 tests without picking couple of 5-fers. We can't even name 10-15 poor/horrible full time bowlers who played 45-50 tests without picking couple of 5-fers.
capt_Luffy
International Coach
Still maintained a decent average and WPM, unlike someone else......
100% agree with this.
Johan
International Captain
I got Fazal above Waqar
subshakerz
Hall of Fame Member
Why are you counting early career stats for Kohli when he was clearly not in his peak or worldclass yet? Let's take it from Dec 2013 against SA to end 2019.
More like 25 tests (only played Zimbabwe once) for Waqar against non minnows over 5 years versus 60 tests (excluding 4 against Bang) in six years.
That's not that huge a gulf.
Sorry but taking 183 wickets@28 in 54 tests post peak is still better than Kohli averaging 30 in 40 tests. Waqar still had great series in Eng and SA in that time. Has Kohli had great series the last five years?
Kohli in 2012: It make no sense to say that don't count 2012 or this was not world class.
A world class batsman can score 3 tons a year and get to 30 tons in 10 years of career. 1 tons was on Aus as well so not jsut at home. Only 10 Asian batsmen have scored more than 1 ton in Aus in entire history. 2011 was world class by any angle.
I suspect, recency bias is making people come up with all kinds of arguements. Kohli did very well from 2012 to 2019 - Stretch of 75 tests against non-minnows.
subshakerz
Hall of Fame Member
Kohli had a batting average of 22 in 2011 how is that worldclass?
No, Kohli until his breakout series in SA in end 2013 was averaging 41 which is below worldclass.
After that for 6 six years he averaged 60.
To put these together as one peak is misleading.
Waqar's record in prime against non-minnows:
20 tests : 123 wickets : Avg 18.66
Then,
You take all his tests vs non-minnows outside of his prime
Total 47 tests : 461 runs & 10 wickets - 0 5-fers ( debute till June 1990) + 4107 runs & 130 wickets with 1 5-fers ( 95 till retirement) = Avg 32.6 with 1 5-fers.
Waqar against non-minnows outside of his prime : 47 tests - 140 wickets - Avg 32.6 - 1 5-fers
This is poor for any full time bowler. Kohli is also poor since 2020. You can argue one is marginally better versus other, but both were poor Difference in ATG output in 20 test aversus ATG output in 75 test jumps out to me way more than anything else, so I picked Kohli.
subshakerz
Hall of Fame Member
Check your stats. His peak was 28 tests. The only non minnows he faced in his peak were Zimbabwe for three tests.
Like I said, Kohli peak without minnows is 60 tests in six years (end 2013 to 2019) averaging almost 60. Before that he was a rookie bat.
So Waqar had a better peak (tho shorter) and was slightly better after peak.
Where did you see me counting 2011 as world class for Kohli? I am counting from 2012. Let's stick to world class and not get bogged down by finding peak. That will be simply a distraction. If you are not world class for extrended period then no point in talking about peak.
Kohli's ATG level output in 75 tests against non-minnows : 660 runs - 25 tons , avg 56-57
Waqar's ATG level output in 20 tests against non-minnows: 120 wickets , avg 18-19 , 11 5-fers
This is the period both were world class. Both are not world class outside of this period.
If some one feels that 20 tests by bowler over comes 75 tests by batsman, then fair enough. I don't see it that way, so went with Kohli.