-
Welcome to the Cricket Web forums, one of the biggest forums in the world dedicated to cricket.
You are currently viewing our boards as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community you will have access to post topics, respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join the Cricket Web community today!
If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us.
Sachin Tendulkar vs Brian Lara vs Viv Richards (spin bowling)
- Thread starter DrWolverine
- Start date
Johan
International Vice-Captain
AB plays too early to handle wobble seamers well, and honestly? his test record is kind of just.... dissapointing, bar Australia.
sayon basak
International Captain
Tbh, I feel like seaming deliveries (specially incoming) is harder to play than swingers.
Johan
International Vice-Captain
definitely, Bounce is probably the one you just gotta adjust to, but Seam takes skill
Migara
International Coach
Gilchrist was a beast against pace. So were some SAF players like Andrew Hudson, Neil mckenzie and Brian McMillian. Graeme Pollock and Barry Richards most likely have been beasts. And then Aravinda de Silva was one of the best against pure pace. It was fast medium bowlers who moved it off the seam like Hadlee and Pollock gave him trouble.
Narayana
U19 12th Man
It is a well known fact, according to widen cricket- As as per the article, "Against a ball that moves 1.5 degrees or more in the air, batters, overall, average 26.70. But against balls that move off the pitch at least 0.75 degrees, only half the threshold for swing, the average hovers around 20".
Cricviz -
Seam movement increased so batting becomes Tougher since dec 2017
From 2010 to 2016, average swing during Tests in England was 1.15 degrees, which decreased to 0.97 degrees from 2017 to 2019. Seam movement rose from 0.58 degrees (2010 to 2016) to 0.71 degrees (2017 to 2019).”
As for which provides a greater threat to batsmen, consider this: batting averages against balls that swung more than 0.97 degrees in the last three years (during Tests in England) was 22.6. Against balls that seamed more than 0.71 degrees it was just 15.6.
Long read: The story of the wobble-seam, the ball that changed cricket
Ben Gardner delves deep into the past, present and future of the wobble-seam delivery, an innovation which has had a radical impact on the way cricket is played.
www.wisden.com
PlayerComparisons
International Captain
Lara
Sachin was a better all around player of spin. Against spinners who offered a lot of flight, Lara was the best but he didn’t seem as much in control against spinners who bowled flat.
Lara’s persistent series failures against India weren’t a random coincidence. To me, they made a far more compelling case (of his weakness against certain kinds of spin) than say his weakness against pace based on a lone series failure against Donald.
Viv is nowhere close to the these two (against spin).
Lara’s persistent series failures against India weren’t a random coincidence. To me, they made a far more compelling case (of his weakness against certain kinds of spin) than say his weakness against pace based on a lone series failure against Donald.
Viv is nowhere close to the these two (against spin).
subshakerz
Hall of Fame Member
Why exactly is Viv a poorer player of spin than Sachin?
subshakerz
Hall of Fame Member
Murali was fairly successful against Sachin. Saqlain with his doosra caused Sachin quite a bit of trouble in 99.
You are correct that Lara couldn't dominate flat spinners though.
Johan
International Vice-Captain
he didn't have Warne to smash apart
DrWolverine
International Debutant
I have the same doubt regarding Sachin & Lara. He may not have had a series like 688 but I don’t recall him have any real problems with spin.
subshakerz
Hall of Fame Member
Ok but Sachin had his fair share of trouble with Murali and Saqlain.
It's relative. Viv wasn't a bad player of spin, but IMO Tendulkar is in another league.
In general, Indian batsmen from 70s to 2000s were the best players of spin that I have seen.
They approached spin like a workman treats his lunch. You could almost sense the glee in their eyes when they came across a spinner.
One of the reasons why (psychologically) I can't have high regard for Warne is because of the way Indian batsmen treated him series after series after series.
I have never seen an ATG (of that level) as utterly helpless as Warne was against India repeatedly.
Coming to Viv against spin, perhaps what transpired during mid-1980s impacted my thinking.
In the 1980s and even into the 90s, SCG (Sydney Cricket Ground) was to spinners what Perth was to fast bowlers.
Even at the peak of their domination, West Indies couldn't win a single Test match at SCG,
their best were draws in 1982 and 1993 (thanks to Lara's 277).
Viv's scores at the SCG during the 80s were:
44, 22, 15, 58, 11, 4
Except for the first Test match in 1982, Viv got out to spin there every time.
Even in the subcontinent, in both 1985-86 series against Pak, and 87-88 against India, he got out mostly to spin (6 out of 10 times).
It could just be my thinking as well. Back then, whenever I watched him bat in spin-friendly conditions, I just never felt the kind of comfort that I got from watching Tendulkar (or many Indian batsmen) under those same conditions.
Again, I am not claiming that Viv was weak or useless against spin, but to me Tendulkar (and many Indian batsmen from 1980s-2000s) were simply in another league.
capt_Luffy
International Coach
Viv did have a Great record against the Indian Quartet though, did good on debut in 74 and especially the 1976 is close to ATG. Also played Underwood well. But yeah, Tendulkar is ahead for me, as are Lloyd and Kallicharran.
Johan
International Vice-Captain
don't really think this makes sense, the 85-86 series transpired on extremely absurdly bowling friendly wickets where Viv still did make runs, and the 87-88 India series was a series where Viv averaged 59, hardly a failure/struggle, he did also make runs against Hirwani in his 16fer game iirc.
shouldn't Sachin's 2008 Sri Lanka tour be worse than either of Viv's tours by your logic? he was dismissed by spin three times and averaged 15. in the 2005 Sri Lanka series he was also dismissed four times at home by spin and averaged 37. I also have fine memory of him struggling with Panesar sometimes. Saffer spinners also suppressed him pretty well in 96.
Last edited:
capt_Luffy
International Coach
Viv, by his own admission IIRC, struggled to Chandrasekhar though. Got him 4 in 8 innings. Also Hirwani got him 3 of 4 innings in 87 though. But yeah, 76 was pretty Great.
Johan
International Vice-Captain
two times Chandrasekhar got him was in his very debut game yeah, but in the next series he made three tons against Chandra, one on a pitch where Chandra took a 6fer in that very inning and him and Bedi ran through the rest of Windies, Chandra got him one time that series after he made 64. Viv vs Chandrasekhar is 100% in Viv's favour tho I don't doubt the young 1974 Viv struggled a bit against Chandrasekhar.
Hirwani is fair, but I'd argue 72 runs against Hirwani in the final test of the 88 series was a feat considering Hirwani was going through one of the greatest spin performances of all time, he took 16 wickets after all and by the last time Hirwani got him, Viv was comfortably past it. Plus, The Madras pitch was underprepared, and was a spinning pitch from day 1 of the test, to the point where Viv ****ing Richards is bowling full time bowler overs
Last edited:
centurymaker
Cricketer Of The Year
In the final quarter of his career Tendulkar was not an ATG player of spin. He'd lost some of his ability.
I actually watched Viv's 4th innings match-winning century against India on a turning track in Delhi in 1987. An amazing innings and a very underrated one.
Viv is one of the greatest batsman ever to play the game. I don't think you can get to that level of greatness by having a major weakness against any kind of bowling.
We are just talking on a relative scale here. By no means am I saying that Viv was Courtney Walsh level batsman against spin.
I am myself admitting that maybe I am swayed by non-domination of that West Indies team in Sydney and the subcontinent. Back then West Indies were crushing everyone everywhere. So even something like a 'non-domination' would make major news and just stick in your thinking.
And this combined with the careless ease with which Indian batsmen of that time seemed to play spin bowling. They just seemed to relish playing spin.