Sachin Tendulkar vs Brian Lara vs Viv Richards (spin bowling)

[kyear2]

Viv vs The Indian Spin quaret

9 matches, 909 runs @ 70, 4 hundreds and 2 fifties.

Viv vs the Pakistani spinners

11 matches, 888 runs @ 49.3, 2 hundreds and 5 fifties

Viv vs Derek Underwood

5 matches, 974 runs @ 121.7, 4 hundreds and 2 fifties.

all series on some spin friendly wickets. while Viv is at bottom, I think he deserves to not be placed tiers below, just a bit unlucky to never get to face Warne or Murali.

Exactly.

 

[kyear2]

At best yes. Overall okay. But don't think it's by any nearly as huge a margin as being stated sometimes.

But to be fair you also think that Sunny was as good and as highly rated as he was.

 

[capt_Luffy]

But to be fair you also think that Sunny was as good and as highly rated as he was.

As good, yes.
As highly rated, can suck my **** for all I care

 

[pardus]

Murali was fairly successful against Sachin. Saqlain with his doosra caused Sachin quite a bit of trouble in 99.

When Saqlain came to the fore, he troubled a lot of batsmen. IIRC he was the first one to introduce the doosra.
He would frequently embarass some of his own accomplished teammates in the nets.

BTW, Saqlain played just 1 Test match against Lara. It was in 1997. Saqlain got 9 wickets in that match. Pak won that match quite easily.
Saqlain got Lara cheaply in both the innings of that Test match.

 

[PlayerComparisons]

Not in any strict order (considering high pace):

Viv
Sobers
Waugh
Tendulkar
Smith
Kohli
Lloyd
Hutton
Ponting
Chappell


Honourable mentions:

Lara
Barrington
Pollock
Headley
Gavaskar
Border
Weekes
Barry

Don't know what to do with Don tbh, Hobbs to an extent too.

My top 13 against fast bowling (all of pace/bounce/seam/swing) post 1970 in no particular order

Tendulkar
Viv
Barry
Smith
Lara
Chappell
Gavaskar
Ponting
Sangakkara
Kallis
Kohli (peak version?)
De Villiers
Waugh
Border

 

[Johan]

I actually watched Viv's 4th innings match-winning century against India on a turning track in Delhi in 1987. An amazing innings and a very underrated one.
Viv is one of the greatest batsman ever to play the game. I don't think you can get to that level of greatness by having a major weakness against any kind of bowling.
We are just talking on a relative scale here. By no means am I saying that Viv was Courtney Walsh level batsman against spin.

I am myself admitting that maybe I am swayed by non-domination of that West Indies team in Sydney and the subcontinent. Back then West Indies were crushing everyone everywhere. So even something like a 'non-domination' would make major news and just stick in your thinking.
And this combined with the careless ease with which Indian batsmen of that time seemed to play spin bowling. They just seemed to relish playing spin.

Oh I completely understand, I just feel like the precendent applied to Viv other than the Sydney argument which is completely valid, can also be applied to Sachin.

I do believe that the West Indies team of 80s was a bit pace heavy though tbh, but I think the slow dry wickets they practised their spin play on was somewhat similar to the Asian pitches where they found great success, but Sydney is kind of a unique track because it has the traditional Australian cues and characteristics, it's kind of faster than the subcontinental pitches, it's a bit more moist, it has a bit more grass, it has a bit more bounce and thus I think it's a distinct from the Indian-style slow and dry pitches that the Windies batters played spin on in their whole life. I think the key to the Sydney pitch is honestly just practise and understanding the wicket and Windies never really did it so on a faster spin track with more awkward bounce, the team built around pace kind of always fell.

The Indian bats on the other hand, always had a very different approach to dealing with spin itself, jumping forward and launching clean, clear cut bat swings and attacking so monstrously that spinners would be intimidated and pushed back, this happened with Warne a lot I feel like, in the 1998 BGT he bowled beautifully in the first inning but Sachin went on pure attack in the next inning, pushed Warne back and Warne bowled short and trash for the rest of the series, same exact story in the second test of 1999 BGT. I feel like the difference was more of just the sheer mindset toward that guys like Sidhu, Sachin and Sehwag brought rather than skill which was also, obviously of very high quality with the Indian bats.

 

[Johan]

Not in any strict order (considering high pace):

Viv
Sobers
Waugh
Tendulkar
Smith
Kohli
Lloyd
Hutton
Ponting
Chappell


Honourable mentions:

Lara
Barrington
Pollock
Headley
Gavaskar
Border
Weekes
Barry

Don't know what to do with Don tbh, Hobbs to an extent too.

man forgot Gavaskar

Ignoring Border as I'm revising him

Bounce

Viv
Sobers
Tendulkar
Waugh
Hutton
Smith
Chappel
Lloyd (idc, idc)
Ponting
Kohli
De Villiers
Undecided on Gavaskar, definitely good though.

Swing/Seam

Viv (reverse included)
Hutton
Sobers
Root/Dravid
Dravid/Root
Smith
Tendulkar
Waugh
Lara
Sangakkara
Crowe
Williamson (c'mon now)

Raw, genuine Pace is another discussion. But honestly, It's such low kind of bowling, technically bashing Varun Aaron means you're playing high pace well, doesn't mean much in practicality.

 

[Johan]

Gavaskar is kinda weird to me, very well rounded but has clear flaws too, him and Border I need to revise and look into.

 

[Sliferxxxx]

The difference between Sachin and Viv when it comes to playing spin is about the same as their difference vs pace. Viv was a little better vs Pace and Sachin a little better vs spin. Both behind Lara vs spin but ahead vs pace.

 

[subshakerz]

two times Chandrasekhar got him was in his very debut game yeah, but in the next series he made three tons against Chandra, one on a pitch where Chandra took a 6fer in that very inning and him and Bedi ran through the rest of Windies, Chandra got him one time that series after he made 64. Viv vs Chandrasekhar is 100% in Viv's favour tho I don't doubt the young 1974 Viv struggled a bit against Chandrasekhar.

Hirwani is fair, but I'd argue 72 runs against Hirwani in the final test of the 88 series was a feat considering Hirwani was going through one of the greatest spin performances of all time, he took 16 wickets after all and by the last time Hirwani got him, Viv was comfortably past it. Plus, The Madras pitch was underprepared, and was a spinning pitch from day 1 of the test, to the point where Viv ****ing Richards is bowling full time bowler overs

Why is Viv struggling against Hirwani an Issue and not Sachin against Saqlain?

 

[subshakerz]

The difference between Sachin and Viv when it comes to playing spin is about the same as their difference vs pace. Viv was a little better vs Pace and Sachin a little better vs spin. Both behind Lara vs spin but ahead vs pace.

This is fair.

 

[Bolo.]

It's relative. Viv wasn't a bad player of spin, but IMO Tendulkar is in another league.

In general, Indian batsmen from 70s to 2000s were the best players of spin that I have seen.
They approached spin like a workman treats his lunch. You could almost sense the glee in their eyes when they came across a spinner.
One of the reasons why (psychologically) I can't have high regard for Warne is because of the way Indian batsmen treated him series after series after series.
I have never seen an ATG (of that level) as utterly helpless as Warne was against India repeatedly.

Coming to Viv against spin, perhaps what transpired during mid-1980s impacted my thinking.

In the 1980s and even into the 90s, SCG (Sydney Cricket Ground) was to spinners what Perth was to fast bowlers.
Even at the peak of their domination, West Indies couldn't win a single Test match at SCG,
their best were draws in 1982 and 1993 (thanks to Lara's 277).
Viv's scores at the SCG during the 80s were:
44, 22, 15, 58, 11, 4
Except for the first Test match in 1982, Viv got out to spin there every time.

Even in the subcontinent, in both 1985-86 series against Pak, and 87-88 against India, he got out mostly to spin (6 out of 10 times).

It could just be my thinking as well. Back then, whenever I watched him bat in spin-friendly conditions, I just never felt the kind of comfort that I got from watching Tendulkar (or many Indian batsmen) under those same conditions.

Again, I am not claiming that Viv was weak or useless against spin, but to me Tendulkar (and many Indian batsmen from 1980s-2000s) were simply in another league.

I enjoy the passion in your posts that comes from what you have watched.

 

[subshakerz]

As good, yes.
As highly rated, can suck my **** for all I care

Sunny turned out to be not as rated as we thought. I know it stings.

 

[Sliferxxxx]

This is fair.

I'd even go as far as to say that Sachin is closer to Lara when it comes to spin than Lara is to him vs pace (express pace).

 

[capt_Luffy]

Sunny turned out to be not as rated as we thought. I know it stings.

I mean, I did thought he was undisputed top opener between mid 70s-mid 80s, but I also did thought peer ratings are thrash (for anyone not named Trumper ofcourse).

 

[sayon basak]

I mean, I did thought he was undisputed top opener between mid 70s-mid 80s, but I also did thought peer ratings are thrash (for anyone not named Trumper ofcourse).

Peer ratings are pretty useful. There's a reason why Qadir is highly rated (and don't know why I have a soft corner for highly rated/overrated players).

 

[Johan]

Sachin Tendulkar had a ‘small weakness’ against off-spin: Muralitharan

The 49-year-old further said that he dreaded dangerous batsmen like Sehwag who had the ability to flay bowlers

www.cricket.com

Legendary off-spinner Muttiah Muralitharan has claimed that, during his playing days, he had the intuition that Sachin Tendulkar had a ‘small weakness’ against off-spinners. Muralitharan, who in his 19-year-long international career had many a titanic battle with Sachin, claimed that he found the Indian batsman to always be ‘uncomfortable’ against off-spin, and asserted that, owing to that very reason, he had an edge over the right-hander.

"I felt in my career, Sachin had a small weakness against off-spin. With leg-spin he smashes but off-spin somehow he had the difficulty because I got him out so many times. And lots of off-spinners also got him so many times, I have seen it,” Muralitharan said during an interaction with Aakash Chopra on ESPNCricinfo.

"I don't know, I never spoke to him regarding this, that why 'you aren't comfortable with off-spin.' I felt in my mind he had a little bit of weakness that's why I got a little bit of advantage compared to other players. Sachin is a difficult player, it's very hard to get him out."

Murali's opinion, fair to say he's speaking from experience and knowledge.

 

[govinda indian fan]

Sachin Tendulkar had a ‘small weakness’ against off-spin: Muralitharan

The 49-year-old further said that he dreaded dangerous batsmen like Sehwag who had the ability to flay bowlers

www.cricket.com

Murali's opinion.

Murali is so unlcky not bowl to kohli. Would eat virat for breakfast lunch and dinner

 

[Johan]

Murali is so unlcky not bowl to kohli. Would eat virat for breakfast lunch and dinner

I can only imagine what Warne and Murali would do on modern Indian and Pakistani wickets

 

[Johan]

Sachin Tendulkar had a ‘small weakness’ against off-spin: Muralitharan

The 49-year-old further said that he dreaded dangerous batsmen like Sehwag who had the ability to flay bowlers

www.cricket.com

Murali's opinion, fair to say he's speaking from experience and knowledge.

'The best batsman I've bowled to'

There's Steve Waugh and Brian Lara. And then, a notch above, there's Sachin Tendulkar

www-espncricinfo-com.cdn.ampproject.org

Under Hansie Cronje we studied hard for a Tendulkar weakness. We thought he might be vulnerable, especially early in his innings, to the ball that is bowled from wide of the crease, coming back in off a good length. He might then be bowled through the gate, or be lbw, especially on English wickets. We also tried peppering him with short balls - not many top-class batters like that - but it didn't really seem to bother him. The one thing that might rattle him is being restricted. He loves scoring, and scoring quickly, and if he is frustrated, sometimes he goes out and looks for the big shot.

Hansie Cronje seemed to have deployed a similar technique, pitching the ball outside and cutting it in (obviously he can't move it as much as Murali), and Sachin did admit Cronje troubled him.