Sachin Tendulkar vs Jacques Kallis

[sayon basak]

Bowling and top 10 slip fielder.

The same way you have the 9th best bowler over taking the top 2?

9th best bowler taking the top 2 is nowhere close to the 17th best batter taking the top 2. And I consider Imran's secondary discipline better than that of Kallis.

And please don't expect others to rate slip catching as high as secondary discipline. I do rate slip catching (that's why I rate Simpson pretty highly), but definitely not as high as secondary discipline.

 

[kyear2]

@DrWolverine rates Kallis above Sachin as an overall cricketer.

And pretty sure a vast majority rates Kallis ahead of Lara as an overall cricketer. It's just that Sachin is a bit too far. Sachin is arguably the 2nd best batter, while Kallis is 15th if I'm pushing hard enough. Imran is arguably the 9th best bowler ever, And has a better secondary discipline than Kallis.

Does he? His production also suffers in comparison to his average. And even that is boosted by late career batting exploits post bowling peak. And of course the down his skiing that most of his big scores were a part of. Not saying there weren't some critical innings, but Kallis had some key bowling performances as well.

Then there was Kallis's catching. And I'll bet that his clutch catching led to more victories than his bowling probably did, and what Imran's batting almost surely did. Take a look through Steyn's compilation of wickets to see the contribution that Kallis (and co.) made to his success.

 

[subshakerz]

Where was Imran rated as a bowler during the 70's and 80's?

You're well aware that he was behind a multitude on the 70's and even in the late 70's into the 80's and accumulatively for his career he was seen to be behind Lillee, Holding, Marshall, Hadlee and can be argued Garner.

So.......

Imran wasn't behind Holding or Garner overall.

And in his peak in the early 80s he was seen as the best bowler in the world. Read his Wisden entry.

Of course he is going to get rated behind Hadlee and Marshall overall since they were better bowlers but he undoubtedly was rated higher than Kallis was as a bat in the 2000s.

 

[subshakerz]

The reason so many pulls down Kallis's batting is for this exact reason. During the 2000's neither could be claimed to be better than the other, but it's fun to discredit his batting, while saying he didn't bowl enough, and to finish it off by saying catching doesn't matter.

The reason his batting is discredited is because he couldn't dominate bowlers nor bat teams out of the game.

 

[subshakerz]

Does he? His production also suffers in comparison to his average. And even that is boosted by late career batting exploits post bowling peak. And of course the down his skiing that most of his big scores were a part of. Not saying there weren't some critical innings, but Kallis had some key bowling performances as well.

Imran averages over 30 runs over innings which as I showed you during the 80s was par for a lower order bat. Gatting and other middle order bats had 31-32.

Kallis with his minnow boosted WPI doesn't come close.

Then there was Kallis's catching. And I'll bet that his clutch catching led to more victories than his bowling probably did, and what Imran's batting almost surely did. Take a look through Steyn's compilation of wickets to see the contribution that Kallis (and co.) made to his success.

Imrans captaincy was far more influential than Kallis catching as a tertiary skill and it's not close.

 

[Coronis]

You should drop Viv for Hammond IMO.

Seconded.

Where was Imran rated as a bowler during the 70's

Where was Anderson rated as a bowler in the 00’s? Bout as relevant for both imo. (@Prince EWS slight deviation from Anderson hate for once)

The reason his batting is discredited is because he couldn't dominate bowlers nor bat teams out of the game.

Pretty sure occupying the crease for a long time and tiring out bowlers, whether you’re scoring quickly or not, counts as batting teams out of the game.

 

[subshakerz]

Pretty sure occupying the crease for a long time and tiring out bowlers, whether you’re scoring quickly or not, counts as batting teams out of the game.

If you're occupying the crease, not scoring and it's not to save a game, then it's literally wasting time and Kallis did that many times.

 

[Coronis]

If you're occupying the crease, not scoring and it's not to save a game, then it's literally wasting time and Kallis did that many times.

When? Provide some examples please. Because I often hear stuff about Kallis costing wins etc and ruining games and people don’t want to post any actual proof. When he won SA many games

 

[subshakerz]

When?

Many examples but here is one. Slow batting literally cost SA the game.

AUS vs SA Cricket Scorecard, 3rd Test at Sydney, January 02 - 06, 2006

Get cricket scorecard of 3rd Test, AUS vs SA, South Africa tour of Australia 2005/06 at Sydney Cricket Ground dated January 02 - 06, 2006.

www.espncricinfo.com

 

[Coronis]

Many examples but here is one. Slow batting literally cost SA the game.

AUS vs SA Cricket Scorecard, 3rd Test at Sydney, January 02 - 06, 2006

Get cricket scorecard of 3rd Test, AUS vs SA, South Africa tour of Australia 2005/06 at Sydney Cricket Ground dated January 02 - 06, 2006.

www.espncricinfo.com

Thats a stupid example. Smith cost them that match by declaring after losing the day to rain. And if you actually paid attention (you probably didn’t) on the 5th morning when Smith would’ve told the team to score quick runs Kallis scored 36 off 49.

 

[subshakerz]

Thats a stupid example. Smith cost them that match by declaring after losing the day to rain. And if you actually paid attention (you probably didn’t) on the 5th morning when Smith would’ve told the team to score quick runs Kallis scored 36 off 49.

The bigger issue is his first innings knock which was pilloried for being needlessly long.

And Kallis was criticized before that last day for his second innings approach.

 

[Bolo.]

Imran averages over 30 runs over innings which as I showed you during the 80s was par for a lower order bat. Gatting and other middle order bats had 31-32.

Kallis with his minnow boosted WPI doesn't come close.


Imrans captaincy was far more influential than Kallis catching as a tertiary skill and it's not close.

What is the average WPI for a 5th (or 6th) bowler? Imran was par for a lower order bat. Kallis was above average.

 

[subshakerz]

What is the average WPI for a 5th (or 6th) bowler? Imran was par for a lower order bat. Kallis was above average.

I never argued that Kallis was below par for a 5th/6th bowler. But that is comparable to a 7/8th bat.

I argue Imran was a 6/7th bat level based on 80s standard.

Sobers was a 4/5th bowler overall. Level ahead of Kallis.

Both Sobers and Imran to me are borderline minimum standard specialist in their secondary disciplines which sets them apart from other ARs aside from being ATGs in their primary.

 

[Bolo.]

I never argued that Kallis was below par for a 5th/6th bowler. But that is comparable to a 7/8th bat.

I argue Imran was a 6/7th bat level based on 80s standard.

Sobers was a 4/5th bowler overall. Level ahead of Kallis.

Both Sobers and Imran to me are borderline minimum standard specialist in their secondary disciplines which sets them apart from other ARs aside from being ATGs in their primary.

Are you trying to argue output or quality here? You seem to be crossing wires.

If quality, Kallis was 3rd seamer quality by 2000s standards. Pretty similar to Imran's batting.

If output, Kallis takes 1.75 WPM. Imran scores 42 runs a match. If we want to equivocate, a wicket would be worth 25 runs by dividing. That's very low. The average value of wickets that Kallis took was 32ish iirc. These numbers also include Imran's batting phase.

This type of output assessment is unfair to both of them FTR. Both are seriously limited by playing role rather than quality.

 

[subshakerz]

Are you trying to argue output or quality here? You seem to be crossing wires.

If quality, Kallis was 3rd seamer quality by 2000s standards. Pretty similar to Imran's batting.

If output, Kallis takes 1.75 WPM. Imran scores 42 runs a match. If we want to equivocate, a wicket would be worth 25 runs by dividing. That's very low. The average value of wickets that Kallis took was 32ish iirc. These numbers also include Imran's batting phase.

This type of output assessment is unfair to both of them FTR. Both are seriously limited by playing role rather than quality.

I was arguing output. I don't think runs per game rather than per innings makes sense if Imran had only 126 innings in 88 games as a lower order bat. Even Botham would only be 50 runs a game and he was a regular number 6.

Do we know Kallis wicket per innings?

 

[Coronis]

I was arguing output. I don't think runs per game rather than per innings makes sense if Imran had only 126 innings in 88 games as a lower order bat. Even Botham would only be 50 runs a game and he was a regular number 6.

Do we know Kallis wicket per innings?

1.08

For comparison, Sobers’ is 1.48

 

[subshakerz]

1.08

For comparison, Sobers’ is 1.48

Thanks.

I would just say we should be consistent in our metric.

We normally look at bowlers on WPM and bats per innings. If we are going to switch to batting output per match are we doing that with all bats?

 

[Bolo.]

Thanks.

I would just say we should be consistent in our metric.

We normally look at bowlers on WPM and bats per innings. If we are going to switch to batting output per match are we doing that with all bats?

RPI is generally going to be more meaningful than RPT. I'm unsure about WPI vs WPT.

You obviously can't compare WPM to RPI without some unnecessarily complicated adjustments. I don't think anyone tries to compare the WPM/I to RPT/I outside of workload. For workload, per test is way better, but there is still some merit to per innings.

Anyway, per test gives an averaged value per wicket of 25. Per innings 28. Batting averages for both eras, and the average value of Kallis' wickets and are in the 30s. It's a win for Kallis either way if this method of comparison is valid, but the magnitude of the win changes a fair bit. Not sure this method is valid, but I also don't see any problems with it.

 

[subshakerz]

RPI is generally going to be more meaningful than RPT. I'm unsure about WPI vs WPT.

Great then let's use RPI since I agree it makes more sense. For which Imran is perfectly fine as far as lower order bats go.

You obviously can't compare WPM to RPI without some unnecessarily complicated adjustments. I don't think anyone tries to compare the WPM/I to RPT/I outside of workload. For workload, per test is way better, but there is still some merit to per innings.

I am only being consistent since we use WPM for all the other bowlers.

Anyway, per test gives an averaged value per wicket of 25. Per innings 28. Batting averages for both eras, and the average value of Kallis' wickets and are in the 30s. It's a win for Kallis either way if this method of comparison is valid, but the magnitude of the win changes a fair bit. Not sure this method is valid, but I also don't see any problems with it.

You already agreed that you shouldn't do runs per test for Imran as it's less reliable.

What is the output measure you want to use for Kallis bowling. Be clear. I think you should just admit that Imran as far as output still has an advantage.

 

[Bolo.]

Great then let's use RPI since I agree it makes more sense. For which Imran is perfectly fine as far as lower order bats go.


I am only being consistent since we use WPM for all the other bowlers.


You already agreed that you shouldn't do runs per test for Imran as it's less reliable.

What is the output measure you want to use for Kallis bowling. Be clear. I think you should just admit that Imran as far as output still has an advantage.

RPT is an unreliable way of measuring quality. It's a reliable way of measuring output.

If you want to measure quality, throw this discussion about runs and wickets per test/innings out the window. Both players are better than the numbers suggest.

If you want to be measure workload, we can look at these output numbers. If you want to be consistent, either compare WPT to RPT or WPI to RPI. If you want to be consistent and use the better method, compare WPT to RPT. I prefer to use the better method.

I've given you the maths that shows Kallis ahead, regardless of which method is picked. I know you aren't going to agree with what the answers are telling us. So either show an error in the maths with numbers of your own or attack the validity of the entire concept.