Sachin Tendulkar vs Jacques Kallis

[Prince EWS]

Think you meant hopefully.

And most often, failing.

Not nearly as critical as catching every chance the bowlers create. Which Sobers / Kallis would also be responsible for.

You should drop Viv for Hammond IMO.

 

[subshakerz]

Think you meant hopefully.

And most often, failing.

Not nearly as critical as catching every chance the bowlers create. Which Sobers / Kallis would also be responsible for.

If Imran averages even mid 20s with the bat at no.8 in an ATG setting, that is gold in the long run in what we agreed are low scoring games.

And most competent, non-elite slips catch the vast majority of chances. Elite slips give you an extra few percent that can be critical chances or just tail bats who would get out anyways. You are taking anecdotes to exaggerate this.

 

[subshakerz]

You should drop Viv for Hammond IMO.

He won't even though by his logic he should.

 

[subshakerz]

Didn't realize Tendulkar now was definitively the best bat since Bradman, moving on...

He is in your ranking.

Strange how you have no issue replacing the 4th best bowler ever with the 8th best, for batting, lower order batting.

Yes because he is the best third bowling option in an ATG XI.

Here's what you're missing, and this is important. In a team with Hutton, Richards, Bradman, Richards, Tendulkar, Sobers and Gilchrist, you want to sacrifice the strength of your 3rd bowling option for extra batting on top of all that. Cool.

Let's say you also happen to have an attack of Marshall, McGrath, Steyn and Warne, hell let's say even Hadlee in stead of Steyn. All of them got the majority of their wickets caught behind said wickets. All of them were also primarily outswing bowlers, Maco dabbling more that in others going both ways.

Need a reverser who doesn't spray it as third seamer. Imran fits naturally.

You need to have a strong cordon and it's a greater priority than picking your no. 8 based on batting.

[/B]Pick the best slippers out of the specialists who make the team.

And the highlighted comment is especially hilarious. Replacing potentially your best pacer out of 3 to get lower order batting, compromises you bowling far more than replacing one batsman out of 6, especially again, since there is a slot etched for for an actual all rounder.

No compromise. Imran is a perfect third pacer for an ATG XI.

Me, I go specialists regardless. I'm consistent with that.

Yeah except in how you promote Kallis over Hammond. Or Gilly over Knott. Etc.

 

[kyear2]

Batting of Imran is definitely useful in low scoring scenarios even if he ends up averaging mid-20s at no.8. if Sobers is coming at no.6 he needs the tail to wag for him to get his full value.

Whereas like I said with the bowling, a 5th bowler role is less critical and can be taken up by even part timers if necessary. @kyear2 himself admits this when he drops Miller and is fine with Simpson as a 5th bowler for an Aus ATG XI and doesn't see this as really harming Australia.

I don't pick Imran either, neither does most of the forum, so really don't know what poor you're trying to make.

 

[kyear2]

Lara easily. It's not just runs it's how they play. You can build an entire batting order around Lara and his aggressive threat but not Kallis the accumulator.

Posters here are obsessed with a 'balanced XI' at the expense of what is actually more effective in real life.

Yes, the better bowler, the better bowler always.

 

[subshakerz]

I don't pick Imran either, neither does most of the forum, so really don't know what poor you're trying to make.

You didn't respond to either of the two points.

This is why it's so frustrating conversing with you.

At least others we can disagree but they engage with the argument.

 

[DrWolverine]

the same way Imran can be rated higher than bowlers who's better, why can't Kallis?

Bias

 

[subshakerz]

Bias

Kallis already is rated higher but he isn't as good a bat as Imran is a bowler, nor as good a bowler as Imran is a bat.

 

[sayon basak]

Bias

Really?? You really think Kallis and Imran are close enough in their primary and secondary discipline?
Remember you rate Kallis as a top 15 batter, Sachin is top 2, and Imran is a top 9 bowler (or maybe higher I don't remember your rankings of the bowlers)

Kallis is pretty consistently rated above batters better than him, it's just that Sachin is a bit too far.
And talking about Imran, well, Kallis is worse at both primary and secondary discipline than Imran.

 

[sayon basak]

And Sobers is rated as a top 4/5 batter, and rated as the 2nd greatest cricketer ever.
So, a 2-2.5 times upgrade in rating.

Kallis is rated in top 17/18, and is rated somewhere in the 11th-14th spot as a cricketer (I personally rate him at 10); so, that'd mean approximately a 1.6 times upgrade in ranking (pretty consistent, as Sobers' secondary discipline is definitely better)

And Imran is rated somewhere close to 9th spot as a bowler, and is considered as a top 5 cricketer. So, that'd be a 1.8 times upgrade in ranking (still pretty consistent, as his secondary discipline is also better than that of Kallis)

Everything is consistent here.

 

[kyear2]

Batting: Hammond
Bowling: Kallis
Fielding; Hammond

2-1

Yeah, I have Hammond one place above Kallis as well.

 

[kyear2]

Agreed. Although I rate Kallis quite highly, it'd be absurd for me to rate him above the mighty Tendulkar as a cricketer.

Is Imran higher than McGrath and Marshall?

And if yes, what's the difference?

 

[DrWolverine]

It’s not fair to compare all rounders especially the great ones with single speciality batsmen or bowlers

 

[subshakerz]

It’s not fair to compare all rounders especially the great ones with single speciality batsmen or bowlers

But that is the entire thread.

 

[sayon basak]

Is Imran higher than McGrath and Marshall?

And if yes, what's the difference?

Yes.


And the difference is, Imran is the 9th greatest bowler ever, while Kallis is 17th in my batters list (even if you push hard enough, you won't be able to put him much above top 15). I rate Imran ahead of McGrath, just like how I rate Sobers ahead of Sachin and Kallis ahead of Lara, but Sachin and Kallis is too far apart in the primary discipline.

2nd vs 9th is definitely closer than 2nd vs 17th, and Imran is definitely better in the secondary discipline than Kallis.

 

[kyear2]

As an overall cricketer, yes.

Kallis is a rare talent - A top tier batsman who is also a fast bowler and a great slip fielder as well

Only 3 of them have existed in the game, Sobers, Kallis and Hammond and can be seen as the most valuable combinations of skill sets.

The reason so many pulls down Kallis's batting is for this exact reason. During the 2000's neither could be claimed to be better than the other, but it's fun to discredit his batting, while saying he didn't bowl enough, and to finish it off by saying catching doesn't matter.

But for someone who bowled 3rd or 4th option more than Imran went into that top order, who was every bit the ATG batsman Sachin was when they played together and for me top 14, added to a top 10 slips fielder, what more does one have to do.

If you rate cricketers cumulatively they're both the same.

 

[kyear2]

That's just not true. This is an article written in the middle of his peak and it starts by saying what everyone felt at that time, that despite his pretty numbers Kallis doesn't bat with intent and therefore wasn't hailed like others. In the mid 2000s at the very least Lara, Ponting and Dravid were more rated, likely others I can name too. Kallis was wallpaper in the background.

Where was Imran rated as a bowler during the 70's and 80's?

You're well aware that he was behind a multitude on the 70's and even in the late 70's into the 80's and accumulatively for his career he was seen to be behind Lillee, Holding, Marshall, Hadlee and can be argued Garner.

So.......

 

[kyear2]

Now, don't you think that the batting difference is too much to overcome with the bowling?
Similar case with McGrath and Pollock (or even Marshall and Akram)

Bowling and top 10 slip fielder.

The same way you have the 9th best bowler over taking the top 2?

 

[kyear2]

They actually had three proper fifth options, they just didn't have a fourth bowler. It was a weird balance they locked themselves into because Reddy and Jadeja kept looking better with the bat than their actual bats.

The whole thing was a cluster ****.

But someone they could trust to take over for a few overs and not leak runs and hopefully pry out a wicket or two.