Sachin Tendulkar vs Jacques Kallis

[Prince EWS]

How did India do this last series without a proper 5th option?

They actually had three proper fifth options, they just didn't have a fourth bowler. It was a weird balance they locked themselves into because Reddy and Jadeja kept looking better with the bat than their actual bats.

 

[OverratedSanity]

They actually had three proper fifth options, they just didn't have a fourth bowler. It was a weird balance they locked themselves into because Reddy and Jadeja kept looking better with the bat than their actual bats.

We got the team balance wrong but I actually think we lose the series 5-0 without lower order runs from reddy , sundar and jadeja at various points.

 

[Prince EWS]

We got the team balance wrong but I actually think we lose the series 5-0 without lower order runs from reddy , sundar and jadeja at various points.

Yeah absolutely.

 

[centurymaker]

With a proper 4th bowler, it could have been 2-2.

 

[Prince EWS]

With a proper 4th bowler, it could have been 2-2.

No lol.

 

[centurymaker]

No lol.

You lucky Rohit overbowled Bumrah on day 4 of MCG or it was gonna be 2-2.

 

[kyear2]

Yeah you don't mind contradicting your stated position on the importance of specialists now that it is Kallis and not Imran.

Fact is Tendulkar is batting key no.4 in most sides and replacing an aggressive bat like him who is the best since Bradman with a bat who is at best top 15 in your listing and lacks the ability to accelerate and dominate attacks is a far worse tradeoff than getting some extra rest overs. You have literally compromised your batting core.

Kallis' bowling outside minnows is nowhere near as impressive as you are making it out to be and kicking the no.2 bat of all time out of your side for slips is just silly frankly.

Didn't realize Tendulkar now was definitively the best bat since Bradman, moving on...

Strange how you have no issue replacing the 4th best bowler ever with the 8th best, for batting, lower order batting.

Here's what you're missing, and this is important. In a team with Hutton, Richards, Bradman, Richards, Tendulkar, Sobers and Gilchrist, you want to sacrifice the strength of your 3rd bowling option for extra batting on top of all that. Cool.
Let's say you also happen to have an attack of Marshall, McGrath, Steyn and Warne, hell let's say even Hadlee in stead of Steyn. All of them got the majority of their wickets caught behind said wickets. All of them were also primarily outswing bowlers, Maco dabbling more that in others going both ways.

You need to have a strong cordon and it's a greater priority than picking your no. 8 based on batting.

In any event I said it was close, and in such a team I already have Barry, Sobers and Viv in the cordon and Warne in the gully, I'm keeping Sachin, even if at 5. I do believe in specialists. But two things, slips are specialists too, and with no Sobers, it wouldn't even be a contest, though likely both would make it. Him or Hammond.

But you're hypocrisy, by the nature of the term goes one way and is impacted only by the love of your favorite player.

And the highlighted comment is especially hilarious. Replacing potentially your best pacer out of 3 to get lower order batting, compromises you bowling far more than replacing one batsman out of 6, especially again, since there is a slot etched for for an actual all rounder.

But yeah, the same argument you make for Imran being a better cricketer than the 7 or so bowlers who are better than him can also go for a batsman who's a very good 5th bowler and an ATG slip. You just choose to see it only one way.

Me, I go specialists regardless. I'm consistent with that.

 

[kyear2]

In an all time great team where I have the likes of Richard Hadlee & Muttiah Muralitharan, I may not need the bowling ability of Jacques Kallis.

Sachin is my choice in all time great team since he is arguably the greatest batsman since Don.

That being said Jacques Kallis is a better test cricketer. A batsman with 13000+ runs and 45 centuries at an average of 55 with the ability to bowl at 90mph who has taken almost 300 wickets at an average of 32 and on top of it a great slip fielder with 200+ catches. Amazing.

That's the thing though, for everyone who jumps on board the accumulated value train, the same way Imran can be rated higher than bowlers who's better, why can't Kallis?

The hoops some goes to just to justify pushing him down. He's a top 3 all rounder who's an ATG bat and slip. That's a whole extra string to his bow, which he performed at, again, an ATG, top 10 level. Why can't he be above Sachin?

 

[Coronis]

The notion you have of "specialists" is nonsense

What there are are specialists slip fielders who are excellent to ATG at their jobs.

Its sad that I’m not shocked at all by a post like this.

 

[Bolo.]

India also tie the series without the Aus tail firing. As do Pak vs RSA.

Series usually only come down to wickets from 4 bowlers + runs from 6 bats when there is a gulf in quality.

 

[Coronis]

India also tie the series without the Aus tail firing. As do Pak vs RSA.

Series usually only come down to wickets from 4 bowlers + runs from 6 bats when there is a gulf in quality.

iirc looking at recent test history you actually see a ton of innings/matches being saved by a wagging tail. This era feels very heavy on top order collapses though.

 

[sayon basak]

That's the thing though, for everyone who jumps on board the accumulated value train, the same way Imran can be rated higher than bowlers who's better, why can't Kallis?

The hoops some goes to just to justify pushing him down. He's a top 3 all rounder who's an arg bat and slip. That's a who extra bow to his string, which he performed at, again, an ATG, top 10 level. Why can't he be above Sachin?

@DrWolverine rates Kallis above Sachin as an overall cricketer.

And pretty sure a vast majority rates Kallis ahead of Lara as an overall cricketer. It's just that Sachin is a bit too far. Sachin is arguably the 2nd best batter, while Kallis is 15th if I'm pushing hard enough. Imran is arguably the 9th best bowler ever, And has a better secondary discipline than Kallis.

 

[Randomfan]

In playing XI, I will go with a top a tier bat. SRT can be argued as the 2nd best batsman in history who could attack and defend. That's too high a quality to leave out for Kallis based on his bowling.

Kallis bowling does not do much for me unless matches are primarily played in SA. I am assuming, we are taking all venues here for a playing XI. With Kallis SR, he may not pick any wicket in 12-13 overs.

Kallis case becomes better if we are talking about an XI for SA conditions.




Kallis as a bowler outside SA: 80 plus SR with 36 plus avg.

 

[subshakerz]

How did India do this last series without a proper 5th option?

Bogus example since India lost because they were down one specialist bat and one specialist bowler.

The notion you have of "specialists" is nonsense, a Hammond (and I'm just taking the bowler here) is perfect. Throw down some overs and occasionally take a few wickets. And you want that from one of your specialist batsmen.

Yet you had precisely the same in your Aus ATG XI when you dropped Miller to have Simpson, Border and Chappell as 5th bowling options.

What there are are specialists slip fielders who are excellent to ATG at their jobs.

No they aren't. They aren't picked for slips.

And again, the likes of Kallis, Simpson, Hooper, Sobers, Hammond, won and contributed more wins to their teams with their catching than bowling and than the "bowling all rounders" do with their batting.

You are reversing your own position that slips are of equal value to lower order runs and 5th bowler wicket. Not surprising.

 

[subshakerz]

Kallis bowling does not do much for me unless matches are primarily played in SA. I am assuming, we are taking all venues here for a playing XI. With Kallis SR, he may not pick any wicket in 12-13 overs.

Kallis case becomes better if we are talking about an XI for SA conditions.

Kallis as a bowler outside SA: 80 plus SR with 36 plus avg.

View attachment 44316

Playing in SA made Kallis look like a better bowler than he was.

 

[kyear2]

In ATG when you have 5 great batsmen and 4 great bowlers, I am not sure how useful the bowling of Sobers or batting of Imran/Hadlee is going to be.

Exactly, but some only want to see it one way.

Sobers will, from time to time still have to fill in some overs, luckily his claim to fame was being miserly to a fault. That's all that's required.

 

[subshakerz]

Exactly, but some only want to see it one way.

Sobers will, from time to time still have to fill in some overs, luckily his claim to fame was being miserly to a fault. That's all that's required.

Imran and Hadlee are batting every innings and if you have Sobers coming at 6, the value of late partnerships is far higher.

 

[subshakerz]

@DrWolverine rates Kallis above Sachin as an overall cricketer.

And pretty sure a vast majority rates Kallis ahead of Lara as an overall cricketer. It's just that Sachin is a bit too far. Sachin is arguably the 2nd best batter, while Kallis is 15th if I'm pushing hard enough. Imran is arguably the 9th best bowler ever, And has a better secondary discipline than Kallis.

Kallis vs Lara is arguable. Kallis vs Tendulkar should not be.

 

[kyear2]

Yes and what they miss is that the scenarios when a 5th bowler is called upon are not key game changing ones, they are literally just a few overs in between to give a rest or if the pitch is dead. Unless your 5th bowler is actually test standard (Kallis is not) it's not a big deal at all.

The way Kallis was actively used in his actual career will never be how he will be used in an ATG setting which will be limited with four worldclass bowlers around.

But a 7/8 like you said is batting every innings and potentially stretching scores out. More critical.

Think you meant hopefully.

And most often, failing.

Not nearly as critical as catching every chance the bowlers create. Which Sobers / Kallis would also be responsible for.

 

[subshakerz]

He's a top 3 all rounder who's an ATG bat and slip.

Kallis is officially not according to CW.