Gary Sobers vs Steven Smith

[Sliferxxxx]

I interestingly didn't left that out.... Dude really??? Anyways, Kohli just had two ATG away tours in tough countries, arguably 3 in total, while Smith had one. His home conditions were also significantly more challenging and I don't think it was really a hot take back in 2018 for Kohli to be ahead.

So Smith had atg series India, south africa and in England as well. And conditions being tougher at home for Kohli is merit less. Why? Because he wasn't near as good away.

 

[capt_Luffy]

I've seen most use the 2019 time-frame so I'll use that as well. Up until that time:

Kohli 84 mts 141 inns 7202 runs @55 with 27 100s and 22 50s. Home/away 68/46

Smith 72 mts 130 inns 7164 runs @63 with 26 100s and 28 50s. Home/away 71/60. It wasn't close.

Pre 2019 Ashes it definitely was close dude...... You can disagree, but I can disagree with your disagreement.

 

[capt_Luffy]

So Smith had atg series India, south africa and in England as well. And conditions being tougher at home for Kohli is merit less. Why? Because he wasn't near as good away.

On 2017 India was ATG. I think going with averages really leaves some gapping context. Smith had his fair share of fill in WI specifically, Kohli didn't. Overall, in countries that mattered, Kohli was better in SA (still is), Smith in England (Kohli used to be thrash there but pulled up some back after the 2018 tour) and both around equal at the other's home (Smith the edge). Overall, Smith was better away, but it's far from what their averages reflects.

 

[sayon basak]

You can disagree, but I can disagree with your disagreement.

Would you mind if I disagree?

 

[capt_Luffy]

Would you mind if I disagree?

I mean, you can disagree and I can mind that disagreement as well.

 

[OverratedSanity]

2018, Kohli right of the back of SA and England, with his 2014 series in Australia, was arguably ahead of Smith

What you mean their careers up to that point? Absolutely not.

 

[capt_Luffy]

What you mean their careers up to that point? Absolutely not.

If you mean for Smith averaging higher in Australia and 165 vs WI, I can understand.

 

[Sliferxxxx]

On 2017 India was ATG. I think going with averages really leaves some gapping context. Smith had his fair share of fill in WI specifically, Kohli didn't. Overall, in countries that mattered, Kohli was better in SA (still is), Smith in England (Kohli used to be thrash there but pulled up some back after the 2018 tour) and both around equal at the other's home (Smith the edge). Overall, Smith was better away, but it's far from what their averages reflects.

Wow, using the WI is really laughable. Kohli til this day has played them much more than Smith: 16 vs 9. That Kohli hasn't capitalized is no one's fault but his own. Still, Smith across teams was consistent 40+ home/away vs all comers. Kohli not so much. Kohli was never in the mix ahead of Smith. Certainly not here on CW.

 

[Prince EWS]

No he wasn't. I distinctly remember that even with all those great series Kohli had, Smith was still well ahead in overall average 60 odd vs mid 50s. And more importantly, Smith was way ahead away. You mentioned Australia 2014 but interestingly left out England 2014: 5 tests 10 innings and an average of 13.

I definitely rated Kohli a fair bit ahead in 2018. Australian roads before then were absolutely putrid.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Wow, using the WI is really laughable. Kohli til this day has played them much more than Smith: 16 vs 9. That Kohli hasn't capitalized is no one's fault but his own. Still, Smith across teams was consistent 40+ home/away vs all comers. Kohli not so much. Kohli was never in the mix ahead of Smith. Certainly not here on CW.

Kohli played WI fairly much very early on his career in 2011. So I suppose it's fair to rate someone who bashed NZ in the 60s over Sobers, as it was Sobers' fault for not cashing on them. Among other countries, the only one where he averaged less than 40 was 36.8 in England; where he had 2 series a 5 matches, one horrible and one ATG.

 

[DrWolverine]

I felt Smith was punished a little too harshly. I never really liked the guy but that comeback century made me a fan of his.

 

[Coronis]

I felt Smith was punished a little too harshly. I never really liked the guy but that comeback century made me a fan of his.

Its a huge in the moment thing. Really common in PC nowadays. I remember when Kohli finally broke his century streak and people were discussing the Fab Four in general. Root looks good, so does Williamson, Kohli is getting into his second peak and Smith is done. Was the gist of multiple posts I saw.

 

[Patience and Accuracy+Gut]

It was definitely close enough in 2018. Kohli looked like he was in the verge of cracking top 15. Smith was ahead definitely but they were at same league .

 

[Coronis]

It was definitely close enough in 2018. Kohli looked like he was in the verge of cracking top 15. Smith was ahead definitely but they were at same league .

Kohli was obviously in better form in 2018 and what with Smith’s ban, it may have looked like he was better in that moment - as some current players are being over/underrated based on current form. But objectively looking at their careers at that point I think its no contest.

 

[Sliferxxxx]

Kohli played WI fairly much very early on his career in 2011. So I suppose it's fair to rate someone who bashed NZ in the 60s over Sobers, as it was Sobers' fault for not cashing on them. Among other countries, the only one where he averaged less than 40 was 36.8 in England; where he had 2 series a 5 matches, one horrible and one ATG.

Sobers huh? Who mentioned sir Gary? Oh you're trying to make an analogy. Well afaic, Smith was to Kohli what Sachin was to Lara at the end of the 90s. Yeah Lara had immense series home and away vs England and Australia 99 but at the end of the day, Sachin was well ahead on averages and especially away. Starting off it was the fab4 but Smith quickly separated himself from the pack. It's only close when people say across formats.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Sobers huh? Who mentioned sir Gary? Oh you're trying to make an analogy. Well afaic, Smith was to Kohli what Sachin was to Lara at the end of the 90s. Yeah Lara had immense series home and away vs England and Australia 99 but at the end of the day, Sachin was well ahead on averages and especially away. Starting off it was the fab4 but Smith quickly separated himself from the pack. It's only close when people say across formats.

Across formats it wasn't close well till 2020-21 really. Re Lara and Sachin, I am sure a fair few still rated Lara higher, especially if asked after 1999 AUS or 2001 SL and I don't think they would had been inherently wrong or one should say Sachin/Lara weren't close. They are still close and the main thing Sachin has over Lara besides a more complete record to his higher ceiling one; is the 7 extra years of longevity.

 

[OverratedSanity]

If you mean for Smith averaging higher in Australia and 165 vs WI, I can understand.

I definitely rated Kohli a fair bit ahead in 2018. Australian roads before then were absolutely putrid.

I'm not saying you guys didn't rate Kohli higher but you were weirdos who were a distinct minority. Regardless of what pitches Smith had played on, he averaged 63-64 and had been a consistent run machine for 5 years. Kohli's career average in 2016 was barely over 43 at one point. Kohli was arguably a better batsman on current form because Smith was banned but that's about it. Over their careers at that point I really don't think Kohli had a case at all.

 

[Spark]

I get the "muh Australian roads" argument completely but the thing is, Smith was scoring runs literally everywhere - home, away, roads, turners, swinging conditions, it didn't really matter, he was making hundreds everywhere he went. So it's not at all the same as the blokes who were piling it on back on Australian roads then becoming half the player overseas. It's why Smith's career average isn't so remarkable so much as his away average was - it's dipped in the last few years ofc, but it's still near 50 which is remarkable given this has been the most bowler friendly era of cricket away from Australia in decades

 

[Johan]

Kohli racked up enough useless runs against hopeless attacks at home under zero preassure anyway, it's not just Smith who has useless runs.

 

[Spark]

Kohli racked up enough useless runs against hopeless attacks at home under zero preassure anyway.

Yeah there was no shortage of flat pitches in India before 2018 which is when things really became incredibly difficult consistently IIRC. That series against England in particular comes to mind.