The Best Wicket keeper?

[Migara]

I don't know about that, but I actually agree. Spinners needs much sharper reflexes on the get go. I have kept in a few friendlies, but even at that low level, spinners were nightmarishly tougher than pacers.

And add to that you have to read what your mate bowling from the hand for it to become easy. Now switch to bowlers like Jadeja, Dharmasena, Rajesh Chauhan or Phil Tuffnell. These guys did know when they delivered the arm ball. But there were times when they delivered their stock ball, it went straight. All four of these guys dart the ball, and Chauhan especially spun it big too. Now good luck keeping to the spinners when even themselves don't know whether it will turn or not.

 

[kyear2]

It changes a bit yes, surely not enough to make a person go from no 1 in white ball to last in red ball

A lot of his white ball ratings was also linked to his batting.

But yeah, longer consistent spells shows up cracks that don't always becomes apparently in tests.
Also bowlers bowl different in tests and ODIs, especially spinners.

He wasn't a great keeper though. I honestly don't understand what Luffy sees when he looks at these keepers and what is world class to him.

 

[kyear2]

During their playing days Bob Taylor was rated as a better keeper than Alan Knott

That's the part that some think is new. Post invincibles, most teams transitioned to the keeper being your second all rounder on the team. Dujon wasn't as good as Murray, Knott as good as Taylor.

Where the difference between then and now comes in is that then, they still valued quality in the keeper. Now it's all about how many runs they can score to make up for substandard keeping and misses.

There is a balance to be found, the ones looking just needs to adjust and refine it.

 

[kyear2]

Dujon was never tested against quality spin.

We saw what happens to great keepers to pacemen introduced to spinners. Mark Boucher was beast keeping to pace. He was a shipwreck in the Super test when he kept to Murali. Greatest keepers need to keep ATG to extremely good spinners to enter the hall of fame.

No he wasn't, don't think that's a surprise.

Boucher wasn't a beast, he was capable, but he wasn't in Dujon's class as a keeper to pace. But yes, he was invalidated as a great keeper after one witnessed that. Don't get me wrong, it takes more than a couple practices to be able to properly handle great spin, but he looked as badly as I would have, and that's unacceptable.

As far as HOF goes, not sure. But I have only two keepers as ATGs and they were superb keepers and more than handy batsmen.

And barring a switch from Pant to Jurel, I don't see any keepers playing that comes close to that standard with bat and gloves.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Not being decent to spin is atleast not World Class @kyear2 . As a matter of fact, I have a mixed feelings on OS' assessment of Dhoni's keeping. He was pretty on point on why he was so great in ODIs, but I do think gave him a quite hard underhand to spinners. And I think majority here shares my views.

 

[kyear2]

Not being decent to spin is atleast not World Class @kyear2 . As a matter of fact, I have a mixed feelings on OS' assessment of Dhoni's keeping. He was pretty on point on why he was so great in ODIs, but I do think gave him a quite hard underhand to spinners. And I think majority here shares my views.

Having a hard time following the beginning and end of that post.

However, he was not a great wicketkeeper. He just wasn't, you can try to spin it however you wish.

I wouldn't say Healy was the standard, because he was just brilliant, but even below that he wasn't even Gilly, who's keeping has become ridiculously underrated. There's a reason why he's one of about 5 automatic selections to an AT team, he was that special and more than anyone bar Bradman and possibly Sobers, a one of one. There's no one close. Knott comes about as close as anyone.

 

[HouHsiaoHsien]

Knott said Wasim Bari was better than him

 

[Thala_0710]

A lot of his white ball ratings was also linked to his batting.

But yeah, longer consistent spells shows up cracks that don't always becomes apparently in tests.
Also bowlers bowl different in tests and ODIs, especially spinners.

He wasn't a great keeper though. I honestly don't understand what Luffy sees when he looks at these keepers and what is world class to him.

I don't think Dhoni was a great keeper overall too. He was however very good upto the stumps, and not that athletic standing back to the pacers, although the ones he got to, he was pretty safe with them.
However I still think, his keeping in test cricket wasn't much worse in red ball than what it was in white ball. If you don't rate it in 1, might as well not rate it in the other

 

[capt_Luffy]

Having a hard time following the beginning and end of that post.

However, he was not a great wicketkeeper. He just wasn't, you can try to spin it however you wish.

I wouldn't say Healy was the standard, because he was just brilliant, but even below that he wasn't even Gilly, who's keeping has become ridiculously underrated. There's a reason why he's one of about 5 automatic selections to an AT team, he was that special and more than anyone bar Bradman and possibly Sobers, a one of one. There's no one close. Knott comes about as close as anyone.

I mean, if you ask me, he wasn't, just better than you are giving credit for. I just said I rate his keeping over Dujon, because keeping to spinners>>keeping to pacers.

 

[capt_Luffy]

I don't think Dhoni was a great keeper overall too. He was however very good upto the stumps, and not that athletic standing back to the pacers, although the ones he got to, he was pretty safe with them.
However I still think, his keeping in test cricket wasn't much worse in red ball than what it was in white ball. If you don't rate it in 1, might as well not rate it in the other

I actually would rather have him keep in ODIs for the way he used to stumps, run out and dictate the game, over practically anyone; but have plenty of keepers I would let keep ahead in Tests.

 

[sayon basak]

Knott said Wasim Bari was better than him

Dale Steyn said Anderson was better than him.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Dale Steyn said Anderson was better than him.

Tbf, I actually think Wasim Bari deserves a shot. Quite a few rated him safer.

 

[sayon basak]

Tbf, I actually think Wasim Bari deserves a shot. Quite a few rated him safer.

For a nation which has produced glovemen of quality but not of the calibre to be tagged as greats, Wasim Bari stands out by a distance. He was not spectacular in the mould of a Rodney Marsh or a Jeffrey Dujon. Acrobatic dives and stunning catches were not his forte. That said, one must acknowledge that Bari was an exceptionally safe keeper, one very close to the best of his era.

Guess you are right, but not sure how would being safer without "Acrobatic dives and stunning catches" would work. Can catches be ugly?

 

[capt_Luffy]

Guess you are right, but not sure how would being safer without "Acrobatic dives and stunning catches" would work. Can catches be ugly?

Never saw Dhoni keep??? Marsh and Dujon both were more...... Limited against spin. Bari, whose forte was essentially spin, didn't need to dive around that much. I have read he dropped something akin to 1 catch in his whole 81 match career (though take it with a grain of salt).

 

[capt_Luffy]

Now a list of Top 25 keepers right out of my arse (mostly peer reviews, and some footages, but mostly arse):

1. Godfrey Evans
2. Don Tallon
3. Bob Taylor
4. Bert Oldfield
5. Ray Jennings
6. Allan Knott
7. Ian Healy
8. Jack Blackham
9. Wasim Bari
10. Jock Cameron
11. Wally Grout
12. Gil Langley
13. Prasanna Jayawardene
14. Herbert Strudwick
15. Wriddhiman Saha
16. Syed Kirmani
17. Jackie Hendricks
18. Barry Jarman
19. Brian Taber
20. Darren Berry
21. Jack Russell
22. Rashid Latif
23. Mahesh Goonatillake
24. Dick Lilley
25. Ron Saggers
26. Naren Tamhane
27. HIK Fernando
28. Dennis Gamsy
29. Ben Foakes
30. Ian Smith

 

[sayon basak]

Now a list of Top 20 keepers right out of my arse (mostly peer reviews, and some footages, but mostly arse):

1. Godfrey Evans
2. Don Tallon
3. Bob Taylor
4. Bert Oldfield
5. Ray Jennings
6. Allan Knott
7. Ian Healy
8. Jack Blackham
9. Wasim Bari
10. Jock Cameron
11. Wally Grout
12. Gil Langley
13. Prasanna Jayawardene
14. Wriddhiman Saha
15. Syed Kirmani
16. Jackie Hendricks
17. Barry Jarman
18. Brian Taber
19. Darren Berry
20. Jack Russell

A top 20? only?

BTW where is Nurul Hasan Sohan?

 

[kyear2]

I don't think Dhoni was a great keeper overall too. He was however very good upto the stumps, and not that athletic standing back to the pacers, although the ones he got to, he was pretty safe with them.
However I still think, his keeping in test cricket wasn't much worse in red ball than what it was in white ball. If you don't rate it in 1, might as well not rate it in the other

First off, I hardly watch nor do I rate white ball cricket.

Secondly I don't think he was "very good" up to the stumps, he was legit ok imo. I never understood why some rated him as highly as they did. The list of keepers I rate ahead of him is a long one.

 

[OverratedSanity]

Not being decent to spin is atleast not World Class @kyear2 . As a matter of fact, I have a mixed feelings on OS' assessment of Dhoni's keeping. He was pretty on point on why he was so great in ODIs, but I do think gave him a quite hard underhand to spinners. And I think majority here shares my views.

I don't feel like I underrated him much. He was a good keeper to spin, but less good than the likes of Saha among Indian keepers. You'd agree I think.

 

[capt_Luffy]

I don't feel like I underrated him much. He was a good keeper to spin, but less good than the likes of Saha among Indian keepers. You'd agree I think.

I previously stated that Saha is hands down the best keeper I have seen for more than glimpses. So for me that's a high barrier.

 

[Migara]

Boucher wasn't a beast, he was capable, but he wasn't in Dujon's class as a keeper to pace.

You are just clutching straws. South Africa fielded a pace attack which was closest to that of WI in 80s. Similar in pace and bounce, and possibly better swing bowlers. Boucher was electric to them, especially keeping to pacers like Mfuneko Ngam and Nantie Hayward, who were express and wayward too. Keeping to Donald would have been much easier.