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Unpopular Cricket Opinions

kyear2

kyear2

International Coach
Johan said:
Maybe Knott can be number 2 then? Knott averages 41 at 7 in horrible home conditions, that's more than fine for a keeper bat to me.
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More than fine, it's ideal. Added to his keeping it should be the template, behind only Gilly for me.
 
Coronis

Coronis

International Coach
kyear2 said:
A bit late to this one, but sure...

But a battle of the Richards.

Which is crazier, that Viv Richards, arguably the best ever player of fast bowling, and definite top 3, and a Wisden top 5 player of the century isn't a top 10 and "barely" a top 15 batsman. Or....... that Barry, the man who was seen as the best batsman in the world for the first half of the 70's, bridging the gap between Sobers and IVA, who made Cricinfo's 2nd AT team and was one of the highest peer rated batsmen ever is an ATG?
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#2 definitely

Though I don’t mind if people think I’m crazy.
 
kyear2

kyear2

International Coach
HouHsiaoHsien said:
Not highly controversial, but will have a go:
Allan Border is a top 11-12 ATG bat.
Though the trifecta of Marshall-Mcgrath-Hadlee is mentioned almost separately in a tier of their own, I think Dale Steyn is more or less as good as the two except Marshall. Maybe even Imran. These five are noticeably better than Ambrose for me(the best after these guys)
Stokes’ Headingley innings whilst being good is very overrated and doesn’t belong near the Lara, Perera, Laxman etc innings it’s clubbed with.
AB Devilliers ahead of Gilly in an all time test XI since the prior is a clearly superior bat and a pretty good keeper as well.
Kohli circa 2018 when he had those ATG tours in SA and Eng, was prolific at home and scored that hundred at Perth, displayed the highest standard of batsmenship by an Asian bat ever
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I rank Border really highly, just not quite the top 12, but with the group just below. But yeah, held the team together in probably the toughest era to bat. So yeah, the more I think about it, no reason no to rate him with the likes of Gavaskar, Hammond, Ponting, Chappell and Kallis.

I have no issues with Steyn being 4th and he's there for me as well. He was incredibly talented and a monster who never stopped coming at batsmen. But his claim to fame was his domination in the flat pitch era, but most of his success was at home and he wasn't ATG vs Eng and Aus, his work in India though was a positive. I can't rate Imran over Ambrose, and I have Ambrose a hair below Steyn of not basically tied. What he did vs England and Australia and his destructive ability was ridiculous.

A.B. Was special, but if it's for the honor of a first team all time I think it should go to the guy who kept his entire career, but that's just my personal opinion. From a practical perspective, Gilly was tested against quality pace and spin more than AbdV, and as such I would trust him way more. Part of the reason why he's one of on the few locks I have for such team is that he actually kept for the guy who happens to be the spinner. Don't know how AbdV would perform in those scenarios. I clearly recall Murali making Boucher look inept, at best.
 
H

HouHsiaoHsien

International Debutant
kyear2 said:
I rank Border really highly, just not quite the top 12, but with the group just below. But yeah, held the team together in probably the toughest era to bat. So yeah, the more I think about it, no reason no to rate him with the likes of Gavaskar, Hammond, Ponting, Chappell and Kallis.

I have no issues with Steyn being 4th and he's there for me as well. He was incredibly talented and a monster who never stopped coming at batsmen. But his claim to fame was his domination in the flat pitch era, but most of his success was at home and he wasn't ATG vs Eng and Aus, his work in India though was a positive. I can't rate Imran over Ambrose, and I have Ambrose a hair below Steyn of not basically tied. What he did vs England and Australia and his destructive ability was ridiculous.

A.B. Was special, but if it's for the honor of a first team all time I think it should go to the guy who kept his entire career, but that's just my personal opinion. From a practical perspective, Gilly was tested against quality pace and spin more than AbdV, and as such I would trust him way more. Part of the reason why he's one of on the few locks I have for such team is that he actually kept for the guy who happens to be the spinner. Don't know how AbdV would perform in those scenarios. I clearly recall Murali making Boucher look inept, at best.
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He was ATG in Aus for sure, those reasons have been articulated by me, and prior(more eloquently by OS and Coronis in other threads). AB looked pretty good as a keeper and as a bat is miles ahead of Gilly
 
capt_Luffy

capt_Luffy

International Captain
HouHsiaoHsien said:
He was ATG in Aus for sure, those reasons have been articulated by me, and prior(more eloquently by OS and Coronis in other threads). AB looked pretty good as a keeper and as a bat is miles ahead of Gilly
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You also said in that statement, "as good as the other two, except Marshall". I disagree with that, imo there really isn't much separating McGrath and Hadlee from Marshall.
Here a more controversial take, alongside those 3, Barnes and Murali all have pretty legit claims to be the GoAT bowler. Steyn, Imran, Warne, Ambrose, Akram and O'Reilly are close to them, but I think I can only call one of those 5 the GoAT and it's legit all the way for each of them.
 
H

HouHsiaoHsien

International Debutant
capt_Luffy said:
You also said in that statement, "as good as the other two, except Marshall". I disagree with that, imo there really isn't much separating McGrath and Hadlee from Marshall.
Here a more controversial take, alongside those 3, Barnes and Murali all have pretty legit claims to be the GoAT bowler. Steyn, Imran, Warne, Ambrose, Akram and O'Reilly are close to them, but I think I can only call one of those 5 the GoAT and it's legit all the way for each of them.
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For me Marshall having a WPM of 6 for a good stretch of matches despite bowling in some of the competitive attacks ever puts as a definite one. He is in the same tier as Mcgrath and Hadlee, but a bit better. Mcgrath and Hadlee are more or less neck to neck, with Mcgrath very very very marginally ahead. I rate Steyn ahead of Murali very marginally. Barnes I don’t factor into those discussions as I’m not sure or convinced to interpret his record in any definite way.
 
B

Bolo.

International Captain
kyear2 said:
A bit late to this one, but sure...

But a battle of the Richards.

Which is crazier, that Viv Richards, arguably the best ever player of fast bowling, and definite top 3, and a Wisden top 5 player of the century isn't a top 10 and "barely" a top 15 batsman. Or....... that Barry, the man who was seen as the best batsman in the world for the first half of the 70's, bridging the gap between Sobers and IVA, who made Cricinfo's 2nd AT team and was one of the highest peer rated batsmen ever is an ATG?
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You know that, Viv being good against quicks aside, this logic is entirely circular? These guys need to be highly rated cos they are... highly rated.
 
capt_Luffy

capt_Luffy

International Captain
HouHsiaoHsien said:
For me Marshall having a WPM of 6 for a good stretch of matches despite bowling in some of the competitive attacks ever puts as a definite one. He is in the same tier as Mcgrath and Hadlee, but a bit better. Mcgrath and Hadlee are more or less neck to neck, with Mcgrath very very very marginally ahead. I rate Steyn ahead of Murali very marginally. Barnes I don’t factor into those discussions as I’m not sure or convinced to interpret his record in any definite way.
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Marshall also had a career much shorter in practicality than the others. He pretty much played all of his career in a peak, but it could be argued that Imran, Hadlee and Murali were better for longer stretches. His lows aren't much low, that's basically what gives him the edge here; but so was the argument of his career being realistically shorter. Also re WPM, a line-up with great bowling does let's the opposition to all out more often. Not a dig, just a bit of contextualisation.
HouHsiaoHsien said:
Murali’s case for GOAT is stronger than Warne’s but his lack of a good series in Aus or Ind is a notable problem
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Murali did had a good series in India in the mid 2000s. And for reasons I stated previously, I really don't count his Australia record much.
 
kyear2

kyear2

International Coach
HouHsiaoHsien said:
He was ATG in Aus for sure, those reasons have been articulated by me, and prior(more eloquently by OS and Coronis in other threads). AB looked pretty good as a keeper and as a bat is miles ahead of Gilly
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We can agree to disagree re Australia. He was better than the comp, but to be ATG is to transcend. Just my opinion.

Re AbdV, pretty good, but was he as tested? And think Gilly was great...

Do we know how he holds up to long spells of wrist spin?
 
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Coronis

Coronis

International Coach
S

SteveNZ

Cricketer Of The Year
sayon basak said:
By rating them.
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Not the science I was seeking...

capt_Luffy said:
Like normal really. Like I rate players from any era with some era adjustments.
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OK, I get that. But I suppose you're only able to 'rate them' in the sense of how strong their record was against their peers. It's impossible to rate their actual ability. And you get some wildly exaggerated stories...I guess we've all heard the story of the batsman (found it now, Albert Trott) who was purported to have hit a straight six over the Member's stand at Lord's in 1899.

1899: Albert Trott hits a cricket ball over the Lord's Pavilion | Lord's

1899: Albert Trott hits a cricket ball over the Lord's Pavilion
www.lords.org www.lords.org

As the Poms would say, I'm not 'avin that. Looks like an extravagant backlift, but with a light bat, and hasn't gone close to being replicated since (that I know of...) it's fanciful.
 
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