**Official** English Football Season 2024/25

[wpdavid]

Lee Carsley seems to be trying to echo Bob Paisley's famous line about 'never wanting the job anyway' after replacing Bill Shankly. The difference being that Bob did know how to manage a side, I suppose.

Anyway, Jonathan Liew's most recent piece is pretty good. A rather more articulate version of my own feelings about the side.

Carsley is not the problem – something feels rotten at the core of this England | Jonathan Liew

This squad cries out for a coach who could imbue a sense of purpose that goes beyond simply wanting to win something

www.theguardian.com

 

[Molehill]

Angel Gomes continues to impress me, lovely assist there…

 

[Skipper Pup]

Nice to see Trent showing his ability for England now that a manager has enough common sense to pick him. Great audition for the Madrid contract right there.

Not so sure about Palmer RW he doesn't really do much for me, really missed Saka out there.

 

[wpdavid]

Not sure about TAA playing left back though. If we're of the view that Walker's getting too old, then TAA should be given the RB role and be done with. His defensive deficiencies aren't going to be any less of an issue at LB, so whoever ends up doing the job needs to find someone else to play there. Elsewhere, Gomes looks like he should be starting in that role every time. So if that means that one or two of the big names don't start, then so be it. Managers are paid to manage.

 

[Molehill]

Mostly agree with the above. Palmer's best position is at 10, but unfortunately so is Bellingham and probably Foden too. There's no way you can start all 3. Palmer would be a better option at 9 if Kane isn't available, but for the time being he looks like being of most use from the bench. Gomes and Rice should just be penned in now, it's the best set up for the team and also gives more protection if you want to play TAA at full back. I think most of this was fairly obvious anyway, but took the Greek debacle to confirm it.

 

[flibbertyjibber]

If Carsley gets the job the Greece result is the best thing that can happen to him as it shows he can't play them all in the same side. As for Trent, he is what he is, great going forward but can't defend. Not sure why Walker plays now we don't have Maguire in the side as the need for his pace to cover is gone.

Anyway it is an improvement, we are just dull now not dull and boring like under Southgate.

 

[sledger]

What's the difference between "dull" and "dull and boring"?

Sounds like describing water as "just wet now, not wet and un-dry".

 

[flibbertyjibber]

I suppose its like having wind but Southgate was having wind and following through

 

[Skipper Pup]

Trent can't defend is such a lazy nonsense narrative.

Probably about the only reason I wouldn't mind seeing him at Madrid. At least while he's collecting trophies in Spain he won't have English fans and media spinning agendas about his defending.

Edit: not saying he's perfect. He's made some silly errors in the past but its actually a part of his game that has improved a lot over the last few seasons.

 

[Skipper Pup]

Mostly agree with the above. Palmer's best position is at 10, but unfortunately so is Bellingham and probably Foden too. There's no way you can start all 3. Palmer would be a better option at 9 if Kane isn't available, but for the time being he looks like being of most use from the bench. Gomes and Rice should just be penned in now, it's the best set up for the team and also gives more protection if you want to play TAA at full back. I think most of this was fairly obvious anyway, but took the Greek debacle to confirm it.

Gomes has been a revelation next to Rice in the pivot. They compliment each other nicely.

He also offers something that none of Gallagher, Mainoo or Jude have demonstrated in that role - the ability to progress the ball.

 

[Skipper Pup]

League stats since 2017/18:

Trent - 483 attempted tackles, 237 successful. 49% success rate
Kyle Walker - 208 attempted tackles, 104 successful. 50% success rate
Kieran Trippier - 428 attempted tackles, 228 successful. 53% success rate
Andrew Robertson - 342 attempted tackles, 179 successful. 52% success rate
Achraf Hakimi - 346 attempted tackles, 172 successful. 49% success rate
Dani Carvajal - 256 attempted tackles, 139 successful. 54% success rate
Joao Cancelo - 411 attempted tackles, 223 successful. 54% success rate
Ben White - 290 attempted tackles, 150 successful. 51% success rate
Pedro Porro - 390 attempted tackles, 176 successful. 45% success rate
Nahuel Molina - 323 attempted tackles, 136 successful. 42% success rate

He appears to be in pretty good company there. Maybe there's a few other players we should be saying can't defend?

 

[Molehill]

League stats since 2017/18:

Trent - 483 attempted tackles, 237 successful. 49% success rate
Kyle Walker - 208 attempted tackles, 104 successful. 50% success rate
Kieran Trippier - 428 attempted tackles, 228 successful. 53% success rate
Andrew Robertson - 342 attempted tackles, 179 successful. 52% success rate
Achraf Hakimi - 346 attempted tackles, 172 successful. 49% success rate
Dani Carvajal - 256 attempted tackles, 139 successful. 54% success rate
Joao Cancelo - 411 attempted tackles, 223 successful. 54% success rate
Ben White - 290 attempted tackles, 150 successful. 51% success rate
Pedro Porro - 390 attempted tackles, 176 successful. 45% success rate
Nahuel Molina - 323 attempted tackles, 136 successful. 42% success rate

He appears to be in pretty good company there. Maybe there's a few other players we should be saying can't defend?

I don't think it's ever been about his tackling, it's his positioning and lack of pace to help him out of it (which Walker got away with until the Euros).

 

[sledger]

Being good at tackling =/= necessarily being a good defender.

 

[Skipper Pup]

I don't think it's ever been about his tackling, it's his positioning and lack of pace to help him out of it (which Walker got away with until the Euros).

I actually agree that he's got issues defensively, the bloke switched off and cost us a UCL final at the back post.

Trent's problem is his application rather than his ability, to which it is fair enough to criticise him. I don't know how much of his positioning (or lack thereof) can be put down to the system v. the individual's tactical instructions. There is already a difference now under Slot.

Those stats were a little misleading, they were actually challenge %'s, so not just tackles but also includes aerial duals etc. When he engages in defensive actions he's pretty much on par with his peers. Ultimately, those numbers were in response to the posters saying he "can't defend" which is clearly wrong, he can.

There is a notion that he gets beaten in 1v1's, which hasn't really happened since his early days against Rashford and Zaha. We're talking 3+ seasons ago when he was effectively a kid. You could find similar moments from any LB/RB in the last decade.

My overall thoughts on the issue are that fans these days like to focus on weaknesses rather than strengths. It's a shame some prefer to point towards that rather than celebrate a generational player who will eventually go down alongside the greats in his position, most of whom had similar defensive deficiencies (Roberto Carlos, Cafu, Marcelo, Dani Alves etc) that we selectively ignore.

 

[sithb]

Trent's someone who's prone to brainfades. Thats about it. Not an indication that he's a bad defender at a right back position.

What he offers to his team more than makes up for any perceived shortcomings in defense

 

[sithb]

Sir Alex Ferguson's Man United contract to end - source (msn.com)

 

[Uppercut]

I think it’s underselling it to say he’s prone to brain fades. Napoli, Real Madrid and a few others have really hurt Liverpool in the past couple of seasons with specific plans to attack the space behind him, and he lets in a few goals at the back post that a better defender would cut out. There was a time when it was such a glaring weakness that Klopp moved him into midfield. It’s not as bad as it was in the first half of 2022/23, but it’s still something that needs to be accounted for tactically. He’s so good on the ball that it’s worth doing, but you can’t just stick him at RB and let him cook.

 

[Skipper Pup]

I think it’s underselling it to say he’s prone to brain fades. Napoli, Real Madrid and a few others have really hurt Liverpool in the past couple of seasons with specific plans to attack the space behind him, and he lets in a few goals at the back post that a better defender would cut out. There was a time when it was such a glaring weakness that Klopp moved him into midfield. It’s not as bad as it was in the first half of 2022/23, but it’s still something that needs to be accounted for tactically. He’s so good on the ball that it’s worth doing, but you can’t just stick him at RB and let him cook.

I'm all for rebuttals but I have to correct comments like these too.

We played Napoli 6 times under Klopp and lost 3 times.
1. 1-0 loss v 18/19. Callejon intercepted a pass from VVD to Robertson and Insigne had a tap in 90th min.
2. 2-0 loss in 19/20. Robertson fouled Callejon 82nd min was a penalty. VVD then made an error in a pass back to Alisson that Llorente scored
3. 4-1 loss in 22/23. Milner gave away handball pen in 5', Anguissa schooled Gomez in 31', Kvaratskhelia did the same to Gomez in 44'. Game was over at 3-0 at halftime when Gomez got hooked after what most LFC fans would say was his worst ever performance for the club.

None of those results or goals had anything to do with Trent.

I'll concede the Madrid one because Vini Jr did have his number in the UCL final, but that's the only real high profile moment he's been beaten at the back post (unless there are recent others I am missing?).
2018 final - Karius
2021 QF - Phillips and Kabak CB pairing, Vini got the better of Phillips twice in away leg and home tie was 0-0.
2023 R16 - Gomez error, Alisson error, Militao set piece, deflected goal off Gomez, VVD error for Benzema goal.

Outside of the 2022 final, none of the other Madrid results had much to do with Trent. Look at the calibre of player we are talking about here too. It's one moment against a world class player and that is in a catalogue of over 5 seasons against some very good wingers.

You then go on to say it was such a glaring issue that Klopp moved him into midfield... when?
(If you're talking about the inverted role he was playing from RB last season he was still lining up at RB but drifting centrally. It's also been stated publicly that the tactic wasn't Klopp's idea but rather Pep Ljinders).

 

[sledger]

Watching him defend reminds me of watching Thomas Vermaelen defend tbh, and these are not good memories.

 

[Skipper Pup]

Watching him defend reminds me of watching Thomas Vermaelen defend tbh, and these are not good memories.

Haha now that's a player who had a brain fade in him!

There's plenty of those types still kicking around - Gabriel, Romero, Martinez, Gomez, Pickford etc.

We had one of our very own in Lovren. No good.

I think most of the list would be South Americans haha. Otamendi, Demichelis and David Luiz a couple others that come to mind.