Ashwin vs Kumble

[OverratedSanity]

SA and NZ. There've been a few dry ones in England.

 

[Bolo.]

IDK about NZ.

I haven't seen much of Ashwin in England, but I saw him getting serious rip in 2 of the 3 games I watched. Doubt he has had an unusually rough deal there. Pace is just more effective.

RSA is just him playing at grounds that are bad for spin, and the games ending too fast to take any turn. Maharaj has an even worse record than him at the grounds he has played at. Ashwin has had a stupidly rough deal, but the idea that RSA are doctoring to neutralise Ashwin is funny.

 

[honestbharani]

RSA is just him playing at grounds that are bad for spin

That is the part that is not a coincidence. And the wickets India have played RSA in have comfortably been some of the worst RSA have dished out in the last 10 years.

 

[OverratedSanity]

RSA is just him playing at grounds that are bad for spin, and the games ending too fast to take any turn. Maharaj has an even worse record than him at the grounds he has played at. Ashwin has had a stupidly rough deal, but the idea that RSA are doctoring to neutralise Ashwin is funny.

Yeah agreed but that's the point really. Can't be a coincidence India don't get tests at Durban and St George's, which are easily the two most favourable grounds for spin.

 

[Bolo.]

That is the part that is not a coincidence. And the wickets India have played RSA in have comfortably been some of the worst RSA have dished out in the last 10 years.

That's economics. There are 3 grounds that get any kind of crowds in RSA for tests. The big 3 are the only countries that RSA don't lose money on, and unless RSA have a jammed home scedule, they will always play those 3 grounds. Aus and England get extra games at other grounds too when they have longer tours, but India only plays only 2 or 3.

The other teams are spread around the country more in a combination of revenue generation and giving different cities a chance to watch. Example: last 2 tours before India was WI on 2 of the popular pace grounds and Bang on 2 of the spin grounds.

Some of the pitches that RSA have served up for India have been atrocious recently. But they should criticised for groundkeepers failing at creating decent pitches, not for intentionally preparing sub standard ones.

Yeah agreed but that's the point really. Can't be a coincidence India don't get tests at Durban and St George's, which are easily the two most favourable grounds for spin.

India used to play there. Then, they lost crowds while BCCI got super rich and CSA went broke. Economics changed.

CSA is far from above some arguably dodgy stuff like picking grounds or pitch doctoring to eke out a bit of an advantage, but it's not what's going on here. We are talking about a country that just fielded a test D(ish) team because they wanted the money from a T20 league. Finances are driving decisions.

 

[ma1978]

That's economics. There are 3 grounds that get any kind of crowds in RSA for tests. The big 3 are the only countries that RSA don't lose money on, and unless RSA have a jammed home scedule, they will always play those 3 grounds. Aus and England get extra games at other grounds too when they have longer tours, but India only plays only 2 or 3.

The other teams are spread around the country more in a combination of revenue generation and giving different cities a chance to watch. Example: last 2 tours before India was WI on 2 of the popular pace grounds and Bang on 2 of the spin grounds.

Some of the pitches that RSA have served up for India have been atrocious recently. But they should criticised for groundkeepers failing at creating decent pitches, not for intentionally preparing sub standard ones.

India used to play there. Then, they lost crowds while BCCI got super rich and CSA went broke. Economics changed.

CSA is far from above some arguably dodgy stuff like picking grounds or pitch doctoring to eke out a bit of an advantage, but it's not what's going on here. We are talking about a country that just fielded a test D(ish) team because they wanted the money from a T20 league. Finances are driving decisions.

I get all of this, but I’m surprised Durban wouldn’t make money when India is touring for obvious historical reasons.

 

[Xix2565]

IDK about NZ.

Subcontinental teams get pitches where spinners average 55, SENA teams get pitches where spinners average 29. That's all pitch doctoring.

 

[Xix2565]

I get all of this, but I’m surprised Durban wouldn’t make money when India is touring for obvious historical reasons.

SA is still mad that they got punked in 2015 by India asking for turners and then smoking them 3-0.

 

[capt_Luffy]

That's economics. There are 3 grounds that get any kind of crowds in RSA for tests. The big 3 are the only countries that RSA don't lose money on, and unless RSA have a jammed home scedule, they will always play those 3 grounds. Aus and England get extra games at other grounds too when they have longer tours, but India only plays only 2 or 3.

The other teams are spread around the country more in a combination of revenue generation and giving different cities a chance to watch. Example: last 2 tours before India was WI on 2 of the popular pace grounds and Bang on 2 of the spin grounds.

Some of the pitches that RSA have served up for India have been atrocious recently. But they should criticised for groundkeepers failing at creating decent pitches, not for intentionally preparing sub standard ones.

India used to play there. Then, they lost crowds while BCCI got super rich and CSA went broke. Economics changed.

CSA is far from above some arguably dodgy stuff like picking grounds or pitch doctoring to eke out a bit of an advantage, but it's not what's going on here. We are talking about a country that just fielded a test D(ish) team because they wanted the money from a T20 league. Finances are driving decisions.

I get that, but SA still produces some of the worst pitches solely for India.

 

[Bolo.]

I get all of this, but I’m surprised Durban wouldn’t make money when India is touring for obvious historical reasons.

I'm not sure the obvious historical reasons are as obvious as you are assuming. RSA Indians have their roots in RSA many decades before India existed as an independent state. There are some cultural ties, but Indian South Africans aren't that much more attached to India as a country than other races.

Things used to be different. Most people used to support anyone who was playing RSA. Dislike of the RSA state didn't immediately away after the end of Apartheid. You would have some South Africans supporting India ahead of RSA for years after rentry... takes a while to switch allegiance. Before 2016, I think there was only one series where India didn't play Durban. Since then they have never played there. I'm not sure this effect was significant for this long... its the other economic stuff I listed more.

 

[Bolo.]

Subcontinental teams get pitches where spinners average 55, SENA teams get pitches where spinners average 29. That's all pitch doctoring.

IDK about Pak. But India, Bangers, and SL have all played series where they played on zero of the pace friendly grounds. I don't think England have had a single series since readmission when they didn't play on all 3 of the pace grounds. Aus plays the vast majority on the quick grounds too. Without checking, I doubt they have played less than 2 in a series. Not sure about NZ.

 

[Xix2565]

IDK about Pak. But India, Bangers, and SL have all played series where they played on zero of the pace friendly grounds. I don't think England have had a single series since readmission when they didn't play on all 3 of the pace grounds. Aus plays the vast majority on the quick grounds too. Without checking, I doubt they have played less than 2 in a series. Not sure about NZ.

I was talking about NZ pitches being anti-spin for certain teams and not for other. As for SA, it's pretty clear that they don't want to entertain any idea of a spinner being useful when playing India post 2018.

 

[Bolo.]

I get that, but SA still produces some of the worst pitches solely for India.

Yes. And Indians should be bitching about the pitches they have got. But that's bad luck on getting the times that the groundkeepers screwed up. It's not intentional. RSA don't want 2 day tests, don't want sanctioned pitches, and don't want pitches that we lose on more often.

 

[Bolo.]

I was talking about NZ pitches being anti-spin for certain teams and not for other. As for SA, it's pretty clear that they don't want to entertain any idea of a spinner being useful when playing India post 2018.

Ah. Sorry, missed that it was NZ

I really can't speak for NZ pitches. I have watched almost nothing there. If they are being played on the same grounds, then your stats are making a good point.

Doesn't really apply to the RSA grounds though. There are massive differences in how spin friendly the various tracks are, and success depends on where you are pkaying.

 

[Xix2565]

Sure, but it's not like a pitch is magically made spin/pace/batting friendly. A lot of work goes into pitches to say that certain things are or aren't deliberate. I mean whenever people complain about very spin friendly/batting friendly surfaces no one ever really takes the stance that it's just how things are in good faith, yet the same doesn't seem to occur with pace friendly wickets.

 

[Bolo.]

Sure, but it's not like a pitch is magically made spin/pace/batting friendly. A lot of work goes into pitches to say that certain things are or aren't deliberate. I mean whenever people complain about very spin friendly/batting friendly surfaces no one ever really takes the stance that it's just how things are in good faith, yet the same doesn't seem to occur with pace friendly wickets.

Natural conditions absolutely do play a role in pitches. It's not an accident that similar regions have comparable pitches.

I'm of the opinion that people should stop having a waah about both spin and pace friendly pitches. I like both, and variety. Just keep the pitches safe, with even bounce, and stop toss lottery pitches. I more typically prefer bowling pitches by far, but that's just personal choice, and even I think that something like RSA is a step too far. Just keep snooze draws to an absolute minimum.

And people should stop equating conventional swing with pitch conditions. Stop having a waah about the pitches when the ball swings, or doesn't. It has nothing to do with it. The only thing a country controls is the ball they choose. #campaign to get Aus and England to switch balls.

 

[Xix2565]

Natural conditions absolutely do play a role in pitches. It's not an accident that similar regions have comparable pitches.

I'm of the opinion that people should stop having a waah about both spin and pace friendly pitches. I like both, and variety. Just keep the pitches safe, with even bounce, and stop toss lottery pitches. I more typically prefer bowling pitches by far, but that's just personal choice, and even I think that something like RSA is a step too far. Just keep snooze draws to an absolute minimum.

And people should stop equating conventional swing with pitch conditions. Stop having a waah about the pitches when the ball swings, or doesn't. It has nothing to do with it. The only thing a country controls is the ball they choose. #campaign to get Aus and England to switch balls.

In a lot of places in the past, bowling spin in places like England was much easier and more fruitful than now. The changes over time of the types of bowlers produced and bowling prevalent has often been linked to changes in pitch preparation and this idea that natural conditions only allow for certain types of pitches is a little uninformed.

Well, pacers can also get seam movement (where the ball deviates off the surface after bouncing) with all types of balls (Akash Deep of India got some cracking bowled wickets just recently vs Bangladesh with seam movement, as did Bumrah). Those SA pitches India got that were discussed earlier were definitely on the seaming side of things, along with being bouncier than other places.

 

[Bolo.]

In a lot of places in the past, bowling spin in places like England was much easier and more fruitful than now. The changes over time of the types of bowlers produced and bowling prevalent has often been linked to changes in pitch preparation and this idea that natural conditions only allow for certain types of pitches is a little uninformed.

Well, pacers can also get seam movement (where the ball deviates off the surface after bouncing) with all types of balls (Akash Deep of India got some cracking bowled wickets just recently vs Bangladesh with seam movement, as did Bumrah). Those SA pitches India got that were discussed earlier were definitely on the seaming side of things, along with being bouncier than other places.

Conditions do change with time. But it's more to do with climate changing than efforts from groundskeepers. England specifically is more to do with covered pitches than anything else.

Ya, RSA is very good for seam and bounce on the main 3 pitches, especially in the last few years. Fine by itself IMO, but the ball also swings conventionally and reverses. Bad time for bats, cos it doesn't matter what kind of fast bowler you are, it works for you. They should tone pitches down a bit IMO. We have been in an era of good quicks and bad bats (especially true for team RSA), and it just makes tests a bit short. The problem with specifically India has been multiple sub standard pitches with variable bounce on top of everything else.

 

[ma1978]

I'm not sure the obvious historical reasons are as obvious as you are assuming. RSA Indians have their roots in RSA many decades before India existed as an independent state. There are some cultural ties, but Indian South Africans aren't that much more attached to India as a country than other races.

Things used to be different. Most people used to support anyone who was playing RSA. Dislike of the RSA state didn't immediately away after the end of Apartheid. You would have some South Africans supporting India ahead of RSA for years after rentry... takes a while to switch allegiance. Before 2016, I think there was only one series where India didn't play Durban. Since then they have never played there. I'm not sure this effect was significant for this long... its the other economic stuff I listed more.

Fair enough. I know much of the cultural history and seen a marked change in say people under 40-45 as to loyalties. That said. kingsmead is a cracking ground to watch cricket and I’m surprised it doesn’t get larger crowds

 

[Xix2565]

Conditions do change with time. But it's more to do with climate changing than efforts from groundskeepers. England specifically is more to do with covered pitches than anything else.

Ya, RSA is very good for seam and bounce on the main 3 pitches, especially in the last few years. Fine by itself IMO, but the ball also swings conventionally and reverses. Bad time for bats, cos it doesn't matter what kind of fast bowler you are, it works for you. They should tone pitches down a bit IMO. We have been in an era of good quicks and bad bats (especially true for team RSA), and it just makes tests a bit short. The problem with specifically India has been multiple sub standard pitches with variable bounce on top of everything else.

Multiple sub standard pitches sounds like a complaint against SA not India tbh, given the greentops they keep making. Even with India, they've made far more good pitches than bad, so I've got no idea why this has to come up all the time.