The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

[reyrey]

It's the exact opposite for great spinners, especially in neutral or (which is the norm) unhelpful conditions. Murali was roughed up by Lara, India and Australia. Warne by Lara and India.

This is why I'm always hesitant picking these 2 in an ATG 1st Xl v ATG 2nd XI kinda setting. I think when it come to the best of the best batsmen there would always be a few who would neutralize these 2 ATGs. I'd rather go with a solid offie who could do a job or a wildcard like Chandra, or even both!

 

[JBMAC]

Yeah, Gilly is an automatic pick based on how he kept to Warne, O'Reilly though is a totally different proposition.

In your dreams sunshine. Tallon and Grout would run rings about him.

 

[kyear2]

In your dreams sunshine. Tallon and Grout would run rings about him.

I'm agreeing with you.

 

[Coronis]

To your first point. Yes he is a drop off from Border, almost half of his hundreds came in one series. Over 15 tests he averaged 24 in England. But as you said wouldn't stress on that right now.

McGrath made his mark over the 2nd half of his career on such pitches, Cummins and Lindwall has some experience and success on roads as well, it happens, those are the matches that draws are made of, even with said spinners. Think Hutton broke Bradman's record on such a pitch vs O'Reilly.

So why select a bowling attack for a forgone draw, while weakening your batting in the process? Can't say it's for India, Sachin and co would destroy Warne and don't see O'Reilly being much more successful.

Australia had McGill, who was arguably better than Lee, how many matches did Australia play both spinners outside of decidably spinning conditions.

India themselves don't so it that often away from the sc, the modern game is skewed towards fast bowling success. Border and Simpson is more than useful enough as second spinners in helpful conditions, and you have your full batting compliment.

It's always plugged how the Don and Gilly gives Australia a batting advantage, but having Miller at 5/ 6 somewhat neutralizes that strength. Not to mention Haydos at the top isn't that top tier level either.

Spinners less frequently make a drastic impact on games before the 3rd and 4th innings. So assume Miller os blowing that much more overs, potentially impacting his batting even more?

We're not playing on uncovered pitches and their main competition will be the West Indies and South Africa, including in those two countries.

This isn't even factoring in that while pace bowlers tend to impact the performances of great batsmen more than the reverse.

It's the exact opposite for great spinners, especially in neutral or (which is the norm) unhelpful conditions. Murali was roughed up by Lara, India and Australia. Warne by Lara and India.

So, be it unnecessarily weakening the batting, and arguably the fast bowling, to the less universally effective choice of playing two spinners in all conditions, the strategy doesn't make sense to be.

I know that not the popular opinion, but it's what I believe. He's not in the realm of an ATG batsman and all of the pacers I've mentioned are rated higher than he is, some appreciably so

Says who?

 

[Red]

MacGill should’ve played a heap more tests than he did, he would’ve if I were a selector. Especially when Watson was available/fit

 

[kyear2]

Says who?

Is that ever the assumption?

Uncovered pitches, like the old lbw rule are relics of the past.

 

[kyear2]

MacGill should’ve played a heap more tests than he did, he would’ve if I were a selector. Especially when Watson was available/fit

But that's kinda exactly my point, and the exact scenario we're discussing here.

It wasn't seen as viable as playing the extra quick. Same thing applies here.

 

[Coronis]

Is that ever the assumption?

Uncovered pitches, like the old lbw rule are relics of the past.

Why can’t we have some uncovered pitches if we can have some players from that era?

 

[capt_Luffy]

But that's kinda exactly my point, and the exact scenario we're discussing here.

It wasn't seen as viable as playing the extra quick. Same thing applies here.

Except MacGill wasn't O'Reilly nor Watson's bowling comparable to Miller

 

[kyear2]

Why can’t we have some uncovered pitches if we can have some players from that era?

We've evolved past that, and it's never the presumption in these scenarios.

 

[kyear2]

Except MacGill wasn't O'Reilly nor Watson's bowling comparable to Miller

1. Scaling

2. It's the larger philosophy

And you're well aware of both.

 

[capt_Luffy]

1. Scaling

2. It's the larger philosophy

And you're well aware of both.

1. Doesn't even scale, especially Watson

2. The philosophy is highly debatable

And you're well aware of both too

 

[kyear2]

1. Doesn't even scale, especially Watson

2. The philosophy is highly debatable

And you're well aware of both too

Of course it scales.

Well you may be right, Watson was just an effective test batsman as Miller, and as such he scales even higher than Miller would for an ATG team.

As for the bowling, Watson was more than good enough for the test team 5th bowler role.
Comparable in scope to the volume that Miller would contribute.

The philosophy is highly debatable, but has been generally one-sided since the 70's with a heavy emphasis on quick bowlers and at most one quick outside of the sub continent.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Of course it scales.

Well you may be right, Watson was just an effective test batsman as Miller, and as such he scales even higher than Miller would for an ATG team.

As for the bowling, Watson was more than good enough for the test team 5th bowler role.
Comparable in scope to the volume that Miller would contribute.

The philosophy is highly debatable, but has been generally one-sided since the 70's with a heavy emphasis on quick bowlers and at most one quick outside of the sub continent.

Watson's batting might scale, no problem there.

Lol, Miller is a top 10 Australian bowler of All Time. Comparing their bowling is purely silly, I must say, Elementary, my dear Watson.

Yeah, much to do with quality also. There literally is only one another spinner comparable to these two here, and MacGill is certainly not one of them. Like, ofcourse Lee is closer to Cummins than MacGill is to O'Reilly.

 

[kyear2]

Watson's batting might scale, no problem there.

Lol, Miller is a top 10 Australian bowler of All Time. Comparing their bowling is purely silly, I must say, Elementary, my dear Watson.

Yeah, much to do with quality also. There literally is only one another spinner comparable to these two here, and MacGill is certainly not one of them. Like, ofcourse Lee is closer to Cummins than MacGill is to O'Reilly.

I never said the bowling was comparable, and that was quite clear.

 

[kyear2]

Top 20 Batsman
Bradman

Tendulkar
Sobers
Hobbs
Richards

Smith
Lara
Hutton

Gavaskar
Ponting
Hammond
Kallis
Chappell
Headley
Border

Sangakkara
Sutcliffe
Pollock
Waugh
Dravid


Top 16 bowlers
Marshall
McGrath
Hadlee

Steyn
Warne
Muralitharan
Ambrose

Imran
Donald
Lillee
O'Reilly

Wasim
Garner
Trueman
Holding
Davidson


Top 12 Slip fielders
Hammond
Simpson
Sobers
Chappell
Taylor
Waugh
Ponting
Richardson
Hooper
Kallis
Lloyd
Dravid


Top 10 all rounders
Sobers
Imran
Kallis
Gilchrist
Miller
Botham
Hadlee
Pollock
Jadeja
Kapil


Top 8 Captains
Benaud
Ranatunga
Taylor
Border

Worrell
Jardine
Lloyd
Imran

All Time XI (1)

Sir John Hobbs
Barry Richards^
Sir Donald Bradman ©
Sir. I. V. A. Richards^
Sachin Tendulkar
Sir Garfield Sobers^⁵
Adam Gilchrist (wk)
Wasim Akram ³
Malcolm Marshall ¹
Shane Warne ⁴
Glenn McGrath ²

All Time XI (2)

Sir John Hobbs
Sunil Gavaskar
Walter Hammond^
Brian Lara^
Steve Smith
Jacques Kallis^⁵
Imran Khan©³
Allan Knott (wk)
Richard Hadlee ²
Dale Steyn ¹
Muttiah Muralitharan ⁴

All Time XI (3)

Herbert Sutcliffe
Graeme Smith^©
George Headley
Greg Chappell^
Ricky Ponting^
Kumar Sangakkara (wk)
Keith Miller ⁵
Mike Procter ³
Curtly Ambrose ²
Dennis Lillee ¹
William O'Reilly ⁴

All Time XI (4)

Sir Gordon Greenidge^
Matthew Hayden^
Rahul Dravid^
Graeme Pollock
Sir Frank Worrell ⁵
Allan Border ©
Leslie Ames (wk)
Alan Davidson ²
Ravichandran Ashwin ⁴
Joel Garner ³
Allan Donald ¹

All Time XI (5)

Bobby Simpson^
Edgar Barlow^⁵
Kenneth Barrington
Sir Everton Weekes^
Javed Miandad
Stephen Waugh ©
Sir Clyde Walcott (wk)
Shaun Pollock ³
Raymond Lindwall ¹
Frederick Trueman ²
James Laker ³

All Time XI (6)

Virender Sehwag
Geoffrey Boycott
Neil Harvey^
Younis Khan
Clive Lloyd^©
Anthony Greig^ ⁵
BJ Watling (wk)
Hedley Verity ⁴
Michael Holding ¹
Waqar Younis ³
Jasprit Bumrah ²

Top 25 cricketers of All Time

Tier 1
Bradman / Sobers / Marshall / Hobbs / Hadlee / McGrath / Richards / Tendulkar

Tier 2
Warne / Imran / Steyn / Muralitharan / Smith / Lara / Hammond / Kallis / Hutton / Gilchrist / Ambrose / Gavaskar / O'Reilly / Ponting / Wasim / Chappell / Headley

 

[Coronis]

Top 20 Batsman
Bradman

Tendulkar
Sobers
Hobbs
Richards

Smith
Lara
Hutton

Gavaskar
Ponting
Hammond
Kallis
Chappell
Headley
Border

Sangakkara
Sutcliffe
Pollock
Waugh
Dravid


Top 16 bowlers
Marshall
McGrath
Hadlee

Steyn
Warne
Muralitharan
Ambrose

Imran
Donald
Lillee
O'Reilly

Wasim
Garner
Trueman
Holding
Davidson


Top 12 Slip fielders
Hammond
Simpson
Sobers
Chappell
Taylor
Waugh
Ponting
Richardson
Hooper
Kallis
Lloyd
Dravid


Top 10 all rounders
Sobers
Imran
Kallis
Gilchrist
Miller
Botham
Hadlee
Pollock
Jadeja
Kapil


Top 8 Captains
Benaud
Ranatunga
Taylor
Border

Worrell
Jardine
Lloyd
Imran

All Time XI (1)

Sir John Hobbs
Barry Richards^
Sir Donald Bradman ©
Sir. I. V. A. Richards^
Sachin Tendulkar
Sir Garfield Sobers^⁵
Adam Gilchrist (wk)
Wasim Akram ³
Malcolm Marshall ¹
Shane Warne ⁴
Glenn McGrath ²

All Time XI (2)

Sir John Hobbs
Sunil Gavaskar
Walter Hammond^
Brian Lara^
Steve Smith
Jacques Kallis^⁵
Imran Khan©³
Allan Knott (wk)
Richard Hadlee ²
Dale Steyn ¹
Muttiah Muralitharan ⁴

All Time XI (3)

Herbert Sutcliffe
Graeme Smith^©
George Headley
Greg Chappell^
Ricky Ponting^
Kumar Sangakkara (wk)
Keith Miller ⁵
Mike Procter ³
Curtly Ambrose ²
Dennis Lillee ¹
William O'Reilly ⁴

All Time XI (4)

Sir Gordon Greenidge^
Matthew Hayden^
Rahul Dravid^
Graeme Pollock
Sir Frank Worrell ⁵
Allan Border ©
Leslie Ames (wk)
Alan Davidson ²
Ravichandran Ashwin ⁴
Joel Garner ³
Allan Donald ¹

All Time XI (5)

Bobby Simpson^
Edgar Barlow^⁵
Kenneth Barrington
Sir Everton Weekes^
Javed Miandad
Stephen Waugh ©
Sir Clyde Walcott (wk)
Shaun Pollock ³
Raymond Lindwall ¹
Frederick Trueman ²
James Laker ³

All Time XI (6)

Virender Sehwag
Arthur Morris
Neil Harvey^
Younis Khan
Clive Lloyd^©
Anthony Greig^ ⁵
BJ Watling (wk)
Hedley Verity ⁴
Michael Holding ¹
Waqar Younis ³
Jasprit Bumrah ²

Top 25 cricketers of All Time

Tier 1
Bradman / Sobers / Marshall / Hobbs / Hadlee / McGrath / Richards / Tendulkar

Tier 2
Warne / Imran / Steyn / Muralitharan / Smith / Lara / Hammond / Kallis / Hutton / Gilchrist / Ambrose / Gavaskar / O'Reilly / Ponting / Wasim / Chappell / Headley

Ok

 

[TheJediBrah]

MacGill should’ve played a heap more tests than he did, he would’ve if I were a selector. Especially when Watson was available/fit

By the time Watson was a real option for more than an occasional game MacGill was retired. Playing those 2 together before 2007 instead of a batsman would have made the team a lot weaker. Symonds often played as an all-rounder in that time between 2005-2008 anyway, and was a much better bat than Watson then

I would like to think MacGill could have played more but I don't see how it would have been a practical option outside of niche situations

 

[reyrey]

Top 20 Batsman
Bradman

Tendulkar
Sobers
Hobbs
Richards

Smith
Lara
Hutton

Gavaskar
Ponting
Hammond
Kallis
Chappell
Headley
Border

Sangakkara
Sutcliffe
Pollock
Waugh
Dravid


Top 16 bowlers
Marshall
McGrath
Hadlee

Steyn
Warne
Muralitharan
Ambrose

Imran
Donald
Lillee
O'Reilly

Wasim
Garner
Trueman
Holding
Davidson


Top 12 Slip fielders
Hammond
Simpson
Sobers
Chappell
Taylor
Waugh
Ponting
Richardson
Hooper
Kallis
Lloyd
Dravid


Top 10 all rounders
Sobers
Imran
Kallis
Gilchrist
Miller
Botham
Hadlee
Pollock
Jadeja
Kapil


Top 8 Captains
Benaud
Ranatunga
Taylor
Border

Worrell
Jardine
Lloyd
Imran

All Time XI (1)

Sir John Hobbs
Barry Richards^
Sir Donald Bradman ©
Sir. I. V. A. Richards^
Sachin Tendulkar
Sir Garfield Sobers^⁵
Adam Gilchrist (wk)
Wasim Akram ³
Malcolm Marshall ¹
Shane Warne ⁴
Glenn McGrath ²

All Time XI (2)

Sir John Hobbs
Sunil Gavaskar
Walter Hammond^
Brian Lara^
Steve Smith
Jacques Kallis^⁵
Imran Khan©³
Allan Knott (wk)
Richard Hadlee ²
Dale Steyn ¹
Muttiah Muralitharan ⁴

All Time XI (3)

Herbert Sutcliffe
Graeme Smith^©
George Headley
Greg Chappell^
Ricky Ponting^
Kumar Sangakkara (wk)
Keith Miller ⁵
Mike Procter ³
Curtly Ambrose ²
Dennis Lillee ¹
William O'Reilly ⁴

All Time XI (4)

Sir Gordon Greenidge^
Matthew Hayden^
Rahul Dravid^
Graeme Pollock
Sir Frank Worrell ⁵
Allan Border ©
Leslie Ames (wk)
Alan Davidson ²
Ravichandran Ashwin ⁴
Joel Garner ³
Allan Donald ¹

All Time XI (5)

Bobby Simpson^
Edgar Barlow^⁵
Kenneth Barrington
Sir Everton Weekes^
Javed Miandad
Stephen Waugh ©
Sir Clyde Walcott (wk)
Shaun Pollock ³
Raymond Lindwall ¹
Frederick Trueman ²
James Laker ³

All Time XI (6)

Virender Sehwag
Geoffrey Boycott
Neil Harvey^
Younis Khan
Clive Lloyd^©
Anthony Greig^ ⁵
BJ Watling (wk)
Hedley Verity ⁴
Michael Holding ¹
Waqar Younis ³
Jasprit Bumrah ²

Top 25 cricketers of All Time

Tier 1
Bradman / Sobers / Marshall / Hobbs / Hadlee / McGrath / Richards / Tendulkar

Tier 2
Warne / Imran / Steyn / Muralitharan / Smith / Lara / Hammond / Kallis / Hutton / Gilchrist / Ambrose / Gavaskar / O'Reilly / Ponting / Wasim / Chappell / Headley

Very well thought out selections. Feel Kapil is unlucky not to make one of the teams. Also AB as keeper should be there too unless he was omitted for not keeping enough.

 

[Red]

Faves XI

Barry Richards
Archie Jackson
Viv Richards
Victor Trumper
Keith Miller
Neil Harvey
Adam Gilchrist
Wasim Akram
Shane Warne
Dennis Lillee
Curtly Ambrose