2000s debutant test XI

[capt_Luffy]

Disagree. Tough 4-5 match away tours will hurt the stats more likely than 2-3 match away tours. There is a reason why the second best batsman for England during Root's career averaged 35 for long time , which is almost 15 less than what Joe Root averages.

In contrast, Pakistan had Azhar Ali who managed to maintain an average of 42 in Tests and Misbah averaged 46 with bat. If these players played tough opponents and tough tours regularly, their stats would have hurt more significantly than it appears now.

Both Azhar and especially Misbah are by far better batsmen than Stokes, who despite capable of producing some ATGs, is highly inconsistent.

 

[capt_Luffy]

And that won't have an impact on batting averages over an entire career? Playing vs stronger opponents and you think you will simply compare plain averages when comparing with a player who enjoyed the luxury of playing weaker nations more so than Root?

It would have an impact, but not necessarily a positive or negative one. Playing weaker nations is a fair point though (ftr I also rate Root over Younis, but think they're very close).

 

[GIMH]

When you don't count Younis's runs his record is indeed pretty bad. Root has played a dozen or so games in Australia without scoring a single ton even in some pretty flat conditions. The SCG is still the same. And he has an ok record in India which is upheld by one double ton on a deck that was flat as anything, so by your logic it shouldn't count. And Root's record is awful in Pakistan too if we're checklisting this. Younis is a slam dunk in Asia as well as Australia. That's the majority of conditions. Even outside of those Younis is much more likely to score big, vital runs when he gets a sniff. Root and Kohli aren't "all conditions" players any more so than Younis. And Root's conversion issues are a big, big downside compared to someone like Younis. It's baffling to give him a pass for that when comparing him to elite batsmen. Younis got runs when he shouldn't have and Root gets out cheaply when there are runs to be made.

I think Root is better than ok in India. He had a bit of a torrid time this year admittedly, then still scored a cracking ton. And the conversion issues have been fairly well resolved these last few years - 15 tons since the start of 2021. He’s still playing so water still needs to go under the bridge but it doesn’t feel right to label it a big downside to me?

 

[Majestic]

Both Azhar and especially Misbah are by far better batsmen than Stokes, who despite capable of producing some ATGs, is highly inconsistent.

That's probably because of huge gulf in their averages. But I am not sure if it far to say "far better".

Would you pick Azhar over Ian Bell? I certainly won't. Would you pick Asad Shafiq over Ben Stokes? Again I won't. England players with same average as Pak players should be rated better due to opposition strength, batting conditions tougher in England than in Pakistan/UAE and busy test schedules.

 

[Silver Silva]

1.Graeme Smith (C)
2.Virender Sehwag
3.Kumar Sangakkara
4.Steve Smith
5.Joe Root
6.Ravindra Jadeja
7.BJ Watling (WK)
8.Ravi Ashwin
9.Pat Cummins
10.Dale Steyn
11.Jasprit Bumrah

 

[Prince EWS]

That's probably because of huge gulf in their averages. But I am not sure if it far to say "far better".

Would you pick Azhar over Ian Bell? I certainly won't. Would you pick Asad Shafiq over Ben Stokes? Again I won't. England players with same average as Pak players should be rated better due to opposition strength, batting conditions tougher in England than in Pakistan/UAE and busy test schedules.

Azhar is really underrated, I'd pick him ahead of Bell. Stokes is clearly better than Shafiq though.

 

[Majestic]

Azhar is really underrated, I'd pick him ahead of Bell. Stokes is clearly better than Shafiq though.

Are you a Pakistani by any chance? I would be surprised if anyone picks Azhar Ali over Ian Bell.

 

[Fuller Pilch]

Would you pick Azhar over Ian Bell? I certainly won't.

Azhar Ali was MUCH better than Ian Bell. He was about Jonathon Trott level.

If he'd played as an opener (rather than a 3) and got the same results he'd rate above Warner as a 2010s opener.

 

[Fuller Pilch]

Azhar Ali averaged 52 in Australia

 

[Prince EWS]

Are you a Pakistani by any chance? I would be surprised if anyone picks Azhar Ali over Ian Bell.

No lol

 

[trundler]

ITT: man struggles to process Pakistani batsmen being good

 

[capt_Luffy]

That's probably because of huge gulf in their averages. But I am not sure if it far to say "far better".

Would you pick Azhar over Ian Bell? I certainly won't. Would you pick Asad Shafiq over Ben Stokes? Again I won't. England players with same average as Pak players should be rated better due to opposition strength, batting conditions tougher in England than in Pakistan/UAE and busy test schedules.

I will give you that Pakistani batsmen usually have flatter home pitches, so a Pak batsman averaging the same as an English bat is generally a bit behind. But it's much more complex with that with a lot many more factors.
On Azhar and Bell, I am really not sure. But it looks like you're severely underestimating him.

 

[Coronis]

Fair but Bond himself never proved himself in Asia. Was largely unsuccessful in the 2 matches he played in Sri Lanka, and to top it off really struggled in the 2 matches vs Australia, the Top dogs. Played 8 on his 18 games against BangZim WI.

Weird thing to criticise considering they had Gayle, Lara and Chanders in all four of those matches. And he nahbed Lara and Gayle 3 times each for 6/20 wickets.

 

[BazBall21]

When you don't count Younis's runs his record is indeed pretty bad. Root has played a dozen or so games in Australia without scoring a single ton even in some pretty flat conditions. The SCG is still the same. And he has an ok record in India which is upheld by one double ton on a deck that was flat as anything, so by your logic it shouldn't count. And Root's record is awful in Pakistan too if we're checklisting this. Younis is a slam dunk in Asia as well as Australia. That's the majority of conditions. Even outside of those Younis is much more likely to score big, vital runs when he gets a sniff. Root and Kohli aren't "all conditions" players any more so than Younis. And Root's conversion issues are a big, big downside compared to someone like Younis. It's baffling to give him a pass for that when comparing him to elite batsmen. Younis got runs when he shouldn't have and Root gets out cheaply when there are runs to be made.

Root hasn't nailed Asia as much as I would have liked, but think he is a bit better than okay in India. He has faced excellent attacks in 3 out of his 4 series there and in some ropey conditions (especially 2021). To average 45 is a good if not outstanding effort.

Younis was better at going big which is a case for him, but I would take Root in most tough conditions and I am fairly consistent in my stance of favouring the latter argument as long as they have good consistent output which Root definitely does.

Root has generally been a titan in England outside the period they made him bat 3 in a very bowler-friendly era. Not succeeding at 3 is arguably one of the three blots against him (other two being suspect at going big and being vulnerable v tall quicks), but YK only played something like 13 tests outside Asia at 3 and didn't really succeed. Both YK's hundreds here were based on his mastery when it comes to going super big on favourable tracks rather than mastering swing and seam. I don't think there's much to say he would get close to matching Root's home resume in the exact same tests. Root perhaps wouldn't be as relentless in Pak/UAE, but he'd still be extremely prolific in YK's home tests. The tracks suit him down to the ground.

I think since 2021, Root has actually improved a lot at going big, but has slightly regressed at making consistent scores which is the opposite to before. But having a conversion rate of 17/67 at one point does hold him back a bit in these discussions.

 

[Majestic]

Azhar Ali was MUCH better than Ian Bell. He was about Jonathon Trott level.

If he'd played as an opener (rather than a 3) and got the same results he'd rate above Warner as a 2010s opener.

Okay, that's your personal opinion then. I disagree.

 

[Majestic]

I will give you that Pakistani batsmen usually have flatter home pitches, so a Pak batsman averaging the same as an English bat is generally a bit behind. But it's much more complex with that with a lot many more factors.
On Azhar and Bell, I am really not sure. But it looks like you're severely underestimating him.

I am sure, Bell is better and similarly Root > YK.

 

[BazBall21]

I rate Azhar over Bell and R Taylor tbf, but I think there's a bigger gap between Root/YK's prowess v lateral movement than the gap between their prowess v spin. Younis is more ruthless in flat conditions, but Root has cracked converting in his prime and has plenty of daddy tons.

 

[capt_Luffy]

I rate Azhar over Bell and R Taylor tbf, but I think there's a bigger gap between Root/YK's prowess v lateral movement than the gap between their prowess v spin. Younis is more ruthless in flat conditions, but Root has cracked converting in his prime and has plenty of daddy tons.

@Fuller Pilch

 

[BazBall21]

Younis would have a big drop off outside Asia in Babar's tests imo.

His strategy of surviving good quicks and cashing in on weaker pacers and the spinner with a dodgy technique wouldn't be as successful in an era of more frequent good pace attacks and less frequent flat pitches.

If you go through his big performances outside Asia, the common theme is capitalising on relatively favourable circumstances (which he is undeniably better than Root at and that does have value) rather than mastering gun attacks in tough seaming conditions which he would constantly have to do in Babar's time.

 

[flibbertyjibber]

Smith
Cook
Williamson
Smith
Root
Prior
Jadeja
Ashwin
Cummins
Steyn
Anderson