*Official* South Africa Tour of the West Indies, AUGUST 6th to 26th, 2024-- 2 TESTS & 3 T20Is

[Kenneth Viljoen]

Then it must be Rickelton. Is Mulder's bowling really that poor? Or not of sufficient quality to be considered when balancing the team?

Mulder did increase his pace , I noticed he was bowling around 135 which is encouraging.

I would keep him , long term we do need an all rounder and he did bat well in his first test ..

Also it would be easier to drop Rickleton for the team, cause he should play the T20s vs West Indies and then the Ireland series so he will get game time.

 

[SeamUp]

Then it must be Rickelton. Is Mulder's bowling really that poor? Or not of sufficient quality to be considered when balancing the team?

Mulder's bowling isn't really penetrative enough on these pitches. And it's also a feeling but even his bowling domestically is becoming less important for Lions & Leicestershire.

If conditions suit he might become threatening but we lucky we have Maharaj and even Piedt to bowl marathon spells if we play both.

 

[Bahseph]

SA tried to make a game of it but the rain ultimately cost them here, although the balance of the team didn't help either.

I'm with @SeamUp with regards to Mulder. He isn't one of our top 3 seamers so he shouldn't be regarded as one in a 4 bowler lineup. I do believe that this is Shukri not being able to make a call on Verreynne and Rickelton. I will say that it is an indictment on Ngidi that Mulder looked to be bowling quicker and providing more control at times. When I think back to when Shukri took over and his comments on allrounders at 7,it really doesn't make sense that we don't have Muthusamy or Linde on this tour. Or I suppose pick Piedt and have Mulder at 6 or 7. Cost us the match if you ask me.

Edit: I am aware that Linde is a touchy subject.

 

[StephenZA]

So I can understand the dilemma with regards to Rickelton/Verreynne. Verreynne is the better keeper, but I just don't trust his batting technique at all and I think long term he is going to be found out and never do great as a top batsmen. Think Rickelton is a far better batting prospect but unsure how to qualify his keeping and he seems to have gone away from that to focus on his batting. If I was forced to I would have Rickelton keep and spend time improving his keeping ability.

I think having Mulder in the team gives a captain options. He is likely not required as much when bowling 2 spinners in a 4 bowler lineup but the ability to switch it up by bringing in a seamer between the 2 spin bowlers bowling in tandem is always important to me. Without tiring out the other two strike seamers. Also I always saw Mulder as more a swing bowler with some pace. Good at first change and then later when just wanting to change combinations. And I still think he is a potential top 6 high quality batsmen for SA, capable of scoring big.

So I can't understand how you drop the quality versatile player because you are struggling to choose between the two wk options. Unless Rickelton is really not a keeper at all and just did it because...

 

[Bahseph]

Hmm I'd always prefer the better keeper unless the batting difference is incredibly stark. Verreynne has some technical issues but he has shown that he can get runs. I'd be okay with him if he averaged 34/35 if he is the best keeper. This may also he Shukri backing Mulder and trying to give him a run in the team for the next 8 tests the way he is backing Stubbs. Makes sense why de Swardt was so quickly discarded even though he was one of our better players in NZ.

 

[SeamUp]

So I can understand the dilemma with regards to Rickelton/Verreynne. Verreynne is the better keeper, but I just don't trust his batting technique at all and I think long term he is going to be found out and never do great as a top batsmen. Think Rickelton is a far better batting prospect but unsure how to qualify his keeping and he seems to have gone away from that to focus on his batting. If I was forced to I would have Rickelton keep and spend time improving his keeping ability.

I think having Mulder in the team gives a captain options. He is likely not required as much when bowling 2 spinners in a 4 bowler lineup but the ability to switch it up by bringing in a seamer between the 2 spin bowlers bowling in tandem is always important to me. Without tiring out the other two strike seamers. Also I always saw Mulder as more a swing bowler with some pace. Good at first change and then later when just wanting to change combinations. And I still think he is a potential top 6 high quality batsmen for SA, capable of scoring big.

So I can't understand how you drop the quality versatile player because you are struggling to choose between the two wk options. Unless Rickelton is really not a keeper at all and just did it because...

Totally get where you coming from wanting a 3rd seamer. Having 5 bowling options is the final piece of the jig-saw for most teams.

But I'm not sure we are at a stage of having security that our top 7 will score enough runs so just want have that good base. Each person knowing their responsibility.

Never seen Mulder even try and adapt and bowl cutters which might add something extra. Remember guys like Kuiper (swing) McMillan (seam), Klusener & Hall (both) being able to bowl cutters when they wanted too on certain type pitches.

 

[StephenZA]

Hmm I'd always prefer the better keeper unless the batting difference is incredibly stark. Verreynne has some technical issues but he has shown that he can get runs. I'd be okay with him if he averaged 34/35 if he is the best keeper. This may also he Shukri backing Mulder and trying to give him a run in the team for the next 8 tests the way he is backing Stubbs. Makes sense why de Swardt was so quickly discarded even though he was one of our better players in NZ.

I would agree on the keeper bit, if Verreynne was an incredible brilliant keeper. But is his keeping that much more exceptional than Rickelton? I don't know. I don't think eithers keeping is super high quality, just solid. But that is an area I just don't know enough about.

 

[StephenZA]

Never seen Mulder even try and adapt and bowl cutters which might add something extra. Remember guys like Kuiper (swing) McMillan (seam), Klusener & Hall (both) being able to bowl cutters when they wanted too on certain type pitches.

I do think we forget how young Mulder started, I think when we think of McMillan and co we forget that that they where playing thir best cricket in the late 20s early 30s period. Mulder has still to get there.

I am entirely thinking in terms of the more experienced team I would like to see playing Test in 2/3 years time. And if we haven't sorted out the batting by then I don't see us ever sorting out the batting. At this stage we have talent and skill, I just feel the team has to rebuild the experience because we are in the situation I predicted for years. SA didn't have a succession plan and didn't have any idea about the future of the team. Kept making the same bad errors over and over again, never bled youngsters into the team. Now we are having to rebuild a batting unit without any genuine experienced good players showing the next group the ropes. And that is seen by the lack of hundreds, because nobody is helping them learn to build an innings. And the FC competition is so poor that doesn't help them either. So you have to find the best players and let them find their way, help and coach and mentor until they start scoring the hundreds.

 

[StephenZA]

I do think we forget how young Mulder started, I think when we think of McMillan and co we forget that that they where playing thir best cricket in the late 20s early 30s period. Mulder has still to get there.

I am entirely thinking in terms of the more experienced team I would like to see playing Test in 2/3 years time. And if we haven't sorted out the batting by then I don't see us ever sorting out the batting. At this stage we have talent and skill, I just feel the team has to rebuild the experience because we are in the situation I predicted for years. SA didn't have a succession plan and didn't have any idea about the future of the team. Kept making the same bad errors over and over again, never bled youngsters into the team. Now we are having to rebuild a batting unit without any genuine experienced good players showing the next group the ropes. And that is seen by the lack of hundreds, because nobody is helping them learn to build an innings. And the FC competition is so poor that doesn't help them either. So you have to find the best players and let them find their way, help and coach and mentor until they start scoring the hundreds.

I think our batting is worse than when we returned to international cricket because at least SA still had a decent FC system and had guys like Kepler who had international experience leading the team. The fact that all we have is Bavuma is a dire indictment of the situation the batting is in.

 

[Bahseph]

To add to that @StephenZA, it was quite comforting to see that we have so many under 30s in the team now. De Zorzi and Stubbs in particular look like talents we could have around for the next 8-10 years.

 

[SeamUp]

Hmm I'd always prefer the better keeper unless the batting difference is incredibly stark. Verreynne has some technical issues but he has shown that he can get runs. I'd be okay with him if he averaged 34/35 if he is the best keeper. This may also he Shukri backing Mulder and trying to give him a run in the team for the next 8 tests the way he is backing Stubbs. Makes sense why de Swardt was so quickly discarded even though he was one of our better players in NZ.

Agree on the Mulder thing. Same can be said for Rickelton. Needs a run of games. Always in and out. Hoping at least in white ball he gets that now because Reeza and Temba there are question marks you would think.

Thing about De Swardt is, and many people have brought that up over Mulder, he played with nothing to lose and did okay but I don't think he has tier 1 domestic hundred yet so over a run of games what can we expect? He is also a very one tempo type batter which doesn't suit 6 or 7. I though it quite showing in the A teams selected only Brand who debuted is there.

 

[SeamUp]

I do think we forget how young Mulder started, I think when we think of McMillan and co we forget that that they where playing thir best cricket in the late 20s early 30s period. Mulder has still to get there.

I am entirely thinking in terms of the more experienced team I would like to see playing Test in 2/3 years time. And if we haven't sorted out the batting by then I don't see us ever sorting out the batting. At this stage we have talent and skill, I just feel the team has to rebuild the experience because we are in the situation I predicted for years. SA didn't have a succession plan and didn't have any idea about the future of the team. Kept making the same bad errors over and over again, never bled youngsters into the team. Now we are having to rebuild a batting unit without any genuine experienced good players showing the next group the ropes. And that is seen by the lack of hundreds, because nobody is helping them learn to build an innings. And the FC competition is so poor that doesn't help them either. So you have to find the best players and let them find their way, help and coach and mentor until they start scoring the hundreds.

Didn't help that our best batsman was the WK and enigma that is de Kock who retired at 30. But totally get your point.

I'm certainly not throwing Mulder away. He deserves opportunity because at least he has built up a decent body of work domestically. Thought his time at Leicestershire had helped. Really played with freedom in the SA20. Just hope he keeps thinking on how to get better in all areas. Whilst I appreciate he bent his back to get to 135kph that doesn't automatically make him more of a threat.

 

[Starfighter]

Cool, need more instances of this happening

Will you provide what test match # that occurred in?

It was a meme here for ages.

SA vs Ind 2013, SA needed 16 off 3 overs with three wickets in hand (albeit one of them injured, and another being Tahir) to chase 458. They played out two maidens then on the last ball Steyn hit Shami for a huge six to leave the margin at eight runs when drawn. If they'd showed a modicum more intent, they might have won.

 

[Tom Flint]

One of the biggest disappointments I had watched a live test that was.

 

[Tom Flint]

They were going for it until du plessis got out but still could have took the gamble.

 

[Slifer]

Now that was a far better batting performance. I feel we're at our best when the run rate is between 3.5 and 4, it seems a good rhythm for us. At Lords and in the first innings here we blocked ourselves into a hole. They should use that as a template moving forward.

Also good to see a proper, high class test match innings from Athanaze. Didn't think any of our guys had it in them, so that cheered me up.

The reality is we lose without rain though, so we need to do this in the first innings in the second test. Oh and please play Shamar, that pace attack was too slow.

I assume he's injured.

 

[Kenneth Viljoen]

I think our batting is worse than when we returned to international cricket because at least SA still had a decent FC system and had guys like Kepler who had international experience leading the team. The fact that all we have is Bavuma is a dire indictment of the situation the batting is in.

I remember Ben Stokes sledging Bavuma about his batting back in 2016 ("You are ****ing ****!) , the irony is that Bavuma's test average is now higher than Ben Stokes batting average, he really has improved tremendously with time.

 

[StephenZA]

I remember Ben Stokes sledging Bavuma about his batting back in 2016 ("You are ****ing ****!) , the irony is that Bavuma's test average is now higher than Ben Stokes batting average, he really has improved tremendously with time.

Yes. Experience does that. He is SAs best batsmen now. Unfortunately his overall ability is low. He plays better than his overall ability. Imagine if we had introduced some of our really talented young batsmen and given them the same backing. We could actually have a decent batting lineup now.

 

[SeamUp]

For our sakes David Bedingham will go past Bavuma and Markram as our best test batsman in these run of games.

There was an emerging tour to Sri Lanka a few years ago and in that team was De Zorzi, Rickelton, Breetzke & v Tonder & watching them had me convinced they were the next batch to hopefully make the grade. It was the time we had Elgar, Faf, Bavuma & QdK as our core in the senior team.

We went through so many vd Dussen, T de Bruyn, Petersen, Hamza, Erwee and I've probably missed some.

De Zorzi and Breetzke had slow starts to their FC careers whilst Rickelton, Stubbs & Verreynne have been doing it from the start. All players abilities/psyche's are different I guess.

 

[Beamer]

I assume he's injured.

No he was dropped in a 'horses for courses' pick due to the conditions.