Kallis Vs Ambrose

[howitzer]

ok

 

[subshakerz]

This is definitely the case for the last 60% or so of his career when he was no more than a bowler who gave the specialists a rest against Test standard opposition. I would argue he was quite a bit better than that in the earlier portion of his career up to and including the 2003 series in England though.

Kallis until 2002/3 was definitely a test class bowler.

The problem is that for 2/3rds of his career he fell below that.

So in the end Imran was a quality bat for a longer portion of his career than Kallis was as a bowler.

 

[subshakerz]

Actually I was thinking more of him taking 5’fers against Lara and Shiv and Vaughan/Trescothick/Stewart. Plus you know, almost all of his best performances with the ball being in wins, unlike Imran with the bat.

Its not a huge difference, but I’ll slightly take Kallis with the ball over Imran the bat.

Again, Kallis' bowling props are just concentrated in his early career.

 

[Coronis]

Again, Kallis' bowling props are just concentrated in his early career.

And Imran’s batting props are just concentrated in his late career.

 

[subshakerz]

And Imran’s batting props are just concentrated in his late career.

Nope. Mid to Late Career.

From 80 onwards, when he scored his first ton, he averaged 50 with the bat in around 50 odd tests out of 88 he played.

 

[howitzer]

Kallis until 2002/3 was definitely a test class bowler.

The problem is that for 2/3rds of his career he fell below that.

So in the end Imran was a quality bat for a longer portion of his career than Kallis was as a bowler.

Oh yeah. For sure Imran was a Test class bat for longer than Kallis was a Test class bowler. In some ways though things depend on how you reconcile that with the prevailing thinking of bowling careers generally being shorter than batting careers. Things get pretty impenetrable when you try to apply this to a batting all-rounders to bowling all-rounders debate.

One thing I will note with Imran is that for that 1980-88 period when he was at the top of his game bowling wise he actually only bowled in 45 of the 74 Tests Pakistan played. Is it fair to give him a full 9 year longevity for that period when he only bowled in 60% or so of the games his team played?

The other slightly more nitpicky thing I have is that Kallis up to the end of the 2003 England series was 69 out of his 166 Tests, which is 41.6% (rounded). That's almost as close to half as it is to a third.

 

[subshakerz]

Oh yeah. For sure Imran was a Test class bat for longer than Kallis was a Test class bowler. In some ways though things depend on how you reconcile that with the prevailing thinking of bowling careers generally being shorter than batting careers. Things get pretty impenetrable when you try to apply this to a batting all-rounders to bowling all-rounders debate.

Fair but then you have a case of Sobers who was test class for a bigger portion of his career than Kallis. We could argue though that Sobers had to because of the poverty of the rest of the attack. I guess it depends how we want to judge Kallis. It is clear that his batting peak didn't coincide as much with his bowling peak so he is hard to judge. He somewhere in the middle of his early years and end years as a bowler.

One thing I will note with Imran is that for that 1980-88 period when he was at the top of his game bowling wise he actually only bowled in 45 of the 74 Tests Pakistan played. Is it fair to give him a full 9 year longevity for that period when he only bowled in 60% or so of the games his team played?

I don't judge him on years really but tests. He missed many of those game actually. He was injured for two years and also retired in 87 early before coming back.

In this case though, we are comparing their batting skills.

The other slightly more nitpicky thing I have is that Kallis up to the end of the 2003 England series was 69 out of his 166 Tests, which is 41.6% (rounded). That's almost as close to half as it is to a third.

Fair enough, we can say 3/5th rather than 2/3rd of his career was below test bowling class.

 

[howitzer]

On balance though I have Imran as a bit better than Kallis on both primary and secondary disciplines so would definitely go for him in that particular comparison. Imran's fielding, which was notably weak for an ATG cricketer doesn't help him imo, but his captaincy kind of redresses that balance. I would under no circumstances want a team captained by Kallis. SA rightly agreed.

 

[howitzer]

Fair but then you have a case of Sobers who was test class for a bigger portion of his career than Kallis. We could aruge though that Sobers had to because of the poverty

I have Sobers as the second best cricketer of the Test era though, and closer to Bradman than he is to third place, where I usually have Imran.

 

[capt_Luffy]

I have Sobers as the second best cricketer of the Test era though, and closer to Bradman than he is to third place, where I usually have Imran.

Sobers is MUCH MUCH MUCH closer to Kallis than Don Imo

 

[subshakerz]

Sobers is MUCH MUCH MUCH closer to Kallis than Don Imo

Don't tell that to Kyear who rates Don behind Sobers.

 

[sayon basak]

Sobers is MUCH MUCH MUCH closer to Kallis than Don Imo

Whatever
Jadeja>> both

 

[Bolo.]

I rate Imran's performances in both primary and secondary higher than Kallis. Kallis was probably a better bowler than Imran was a bat though. Averages don't really reflect this, but Kallis bowled at tough times and Imran scored most of his runs from an easy batting position. Kallis toned down his bowling as well for the sake of his career, both in pace and workload. He bowled more overs than Imran in his career and scored close to 10k more runs.

Imran for game by game. Kallis for career.

 

[kyear2]

Actually I was thinking more of him taking 5’fers against Lara and Shiv and Vaughan/Trescothick/Stewart. Plus you know, almost all of his best performances with the ball being in wins, unlike Imran with the bat.

Its not a huge difference, but I’ll slightly take Kallis with the ball over Imran the bat.

My argument is that Kallis's performances

Its literally the same for both of them. Imran’s average flatters him due to low output and Kallis’ flatters him due to lower bowling load.

My argument for Kallis is that his fivers generally came in winning causes, while of Imran's 7 hundreds, only one came in a victory and that was by more than an innings. The rest came in draws, only one of which could be described as a full rescue job.
For their primary skills, both lie just outside of the very top tiers, and just below the best of their eras.
Then you add Kallis's catching, where I would easily rank him as a top 3 slip fielder of the last 30 years and top 10 of all time.

No reason to have either rated significantly ahead of the other and argument for either to be rated higher.

 

[subshakerz]

Plus you know, almost all of his best performances with the ball being in wins, unlike Imran with the bat.

I don't really see this point honestly. First off, if Kallis' bowling came in wins, that also has a lot to do with strength of the sides.

Second, I don't see why tons or fifties that save games are worth less than those that were only part of a win. For a lower order bat like Imran, it's simply unrealistic to expect him to win games by his lonesome. For a weak batting team like Pak he would be expected to save games much more and he did frequently.

Imran has two high pressure tons against WI quartet and in Aus that saved games. He also has a ton against India in a game everyone scored that was won. No way that latter one was better. And Imran saved Pakistan many times.

Pak were 95-5 against WI quartet and Imran saved them.

PAK vs WI Cricket Scorecard, 1st Test at Lahore, November 24 - 29, 1980

Get cricket scorecard of 1st Test, PAK vs WI, West Indies tour of Pakistan 1980/81 at Gaddafi Stadium, Lahore dated November 24 - 29, 1980.

www.espncricinfo.com

Pakistan with 80-5 with a deficit against Lillee in Australia when Imran saved them.

AUS vs PAK Cricket Scorecard, 4th Test at Melbourne, December 26 - 30, 1983

Get cricket scorecard of 4th Test, AUS vs PAK, Pakistan tour of Australia 1983/84 at Melbourne Cricket Ground dated December 26 - 30, 1983.

www.espncricinfo.com

Pakistan were 22-4 with a 90 run deficit when Imran saved them.

AUS vs PAK Cricket Scorecard, 2nd Test at Adelaide, January 19 - 23, 1990

Get cricket scorecard of 2nd Test, AUS vs PAK, Pakistan tour of Australia 1989/90 at Adelaide Oval dated January 19 - 23, 1990.

www.espncricinfo.com

He saved them the next game too.

Pak were at the verge of defeat but Imran helped them bat out the game against WI.

PAK vs WI Cricket Scorecard, 3rd Test at Lahore, December 06 - 11, 1990

Get cricket scorecard of 3rd Test, PAK vs WI, West Indies tour of Pakistan 1990/91 at Gaddafi Stadium, Lahore dated December 06 - 11, 1990.

www.espncricinfo.com

There are more examples but you get the point that for a weaker lineup, Imran's job was more consolidation.

 

[kyear2]

Sobers is MUCH MUCH MUCH closer to Kallis than Don Imo

Would disagree with that, but it's all good.

 

[kyear2]

I rate Imran's performances in both primary and secondary higher than Kallis. Kallis was probably a better bowler than Imran was a bat though. Averages don't really reflect this, but Kallis bowled at tough times and Imran scored most of his runs from an easy batting position. Kallis toned down his bowling as well for the sake of his career, both in pace and workload. He bowled more overs than Imran in his career and scored close to 10k more runs.

Imran for game by game. Kallis for career.

This right here is the point that is often ignored, and where context and nuance has been lacking.

 

[kyear2]

I don't really see this point honestly. First off, if Kallis' bowling came in wins, that also has a lot to do with strength of the sides.

Second, I don't see why tons or fifties that save games are worth less than those that were only part of a win. For a lower order bat like Imran, it's simply unrealistic to expect him to win games by his lonesome. For a weak batting team like Pak he would be expected to save games much more and he did frequently.

Imran has two high pressure tons against WI quartet and in Aus that saved games. He also has a ton against India in a game everyone scored that was won. No way that latter one was better.

To start, his two valuable tons, so no arguments there.

The first was critical, first innings so wouldn't quite stress the high pressure, and the game was saved by Majid in the 2nd innings. But definitely credit for setting up the total, and it the game was definitely in a critical stage when he entered. Also wouldn't quibble about it being the "quartet", because still way better than most attacks ever.

That Aussie innings though was clutch and definely helped to save the game. Big Merv apart though, that '90 attack weren't exactly world beaters.

So yes, two good innings and both more impressive and critical than the referenced ton vs India.

Kallis had two 5 wicket hauls vs the WI, one literally.winning the match and the second setting up a match where they should have.

The '99 team wasn't exactly a batting juggernaut, but had Lara and Shiv on the team and Kallis, opening the bowling led SA to victory.
The 2001 team had Lara, Gayle and Sarwan, but again, not an especially good batting lineup, but Kallis set up the match with his first innings effort pulling up the slack for Donald. And then, on what was but that point a turning pitch, he opened the bowling and took the only wickets taken by a seamer in the final innings.

In 2003 he literally bowled SA to victory vs England with 3 wickets in the first and a match winning 6-for in the second.

I would say in this instances Kallis matching winning performances would have been equal if not slightly more impressive. Definely more impactful with regards to victory though.

 

[subshakerz]

Not replying directly to @kyear2 as I have agreed not to engage him anymore, but a general point about Kallis' slightly overrated bowling:

- Kallis played 166 tests, with that much volume it inflates his record quite a bit. In bowling terms though he was overall a solid 5th bowler. Too many are impressed by raw numbers.

- Kallis could not make a mid level team based on his bowling record alone even in the 2000s. He would need to have at least a couple wickets a game to argue that. Imran could make such a teams in the 80s on his batting record alone if you look at his era as there were plenty of comparable lower order bats in those lineups. Look at somewhat like Gus Logie who played the entire 80s in the WI lineup and tell me Imran couldn't take his place.

- Those promoting him need to admit that there was a drastic difference in his role early versus kid and late career. Early career was a genuine 3rd/4th bowler, late career very much a 5th bowler who kept the batters warm between main seamers.

- If you are looking at individual games won, you can find a few examples from Kallis but virtually all of these are early career. He has 5 fifers in his entire 166 tests career, two against WI and two against Bangladesh. That is a awfully low sampling. It means he barely ever went into an actual wickettaker mode. Carl Hooper has four in 100 tests btw all against real opposition. This is just a bad way to do it.

- Once you take out minnows from Kallis' record, it becomes clear you can't take him seriously as a standalone bowling option.

 

[kyear2]

Quoting from somewhere above, Imran's average prior to the later days and he becoming a batting all-rounder was around 33. That's not a viable test batsman.
There are multiple bolwers who played and ended up averaging over 35, doesn't make Kallis a viable test blower.

Imran's batting numbers being incredibly soft, and those actual runs being aided by some downhill skiing aside. Batting at 8 is when batting gets easier, bowling 4th change is when the bowling gets harder. The old(er) ball, set batsmen, less helpful conditions (if it were a blow out, he wouldn't be getting much opportunity), bowling against the wind and more defensive field are all conditions he would have dealt with.

Neither of the two of them are making a strong team on their secondary skills. Both filled their specific roles perfectly.

Trying to call Kallis over rated while repeating batting averages that had no correlation with actual production, isn't the way to go here.