Kallis Vs Ambrose

[capt_Luffy]

You mean if they are being compared with players with bigger samples of failure? Sure.

You know what I mean...... Laker's away record is literally as successful as Jadeja's.

 

[Bolo.]

Started when some people started calling him Sachin+Zaheer and the greatest player of all time

Kinda funny how you and @subshakerz mark Kallis down for being overrated and underrated respectively. I say you fight.

 

[subshakerz]

I know, I also agree plenty with him, but there are certain players his criticism is most often irrational and they include Ashwin, Jadeja, Kallis, Ambrose and Lara.

I have been similarly accused for Sehwag, Steyn, Hadlee, Marshall too now. It's getting funny to see. Basically anywhere I see a player being overrated a bit or much I will comment.

 

[subshakerz]

You know what I mean...... Laker's away record is literally as successful as Jadeja's.

I take into account the time period.

 

[capt_Luffy]

I take into account the time period.

Yeah, and even I think older players like Laker should be scrutinized equally and there poor away record should not be glossed over, like you do, just to prove them>Jadeja, Ashwin. Found it funny after all that you somehow questioned Hobbs...... Especially funny, you don't even rate Grum, but still voted for him against Ashwin and yourself admitted that. "See a player get overrated" My butt, after this you will have the audacity to say that. Like for instance, everyone but Kyear rates Marshall and McGrath close, even to an extent he too.

 

[subshakerz]

Yeah, and even I think older players like Laker should be scrutinized equally and there poor away record should not be glossed over, like you do, just to prove them>Jadeja, Ashwin. Found it funny after all that you somehow questioned Hobbs...... Especially funny, you don't even rate Grum, but still voted for him against Ashwin and yourself admitted that. "See a player get overrated" My butt, after this you will have the audacity to say that. Like for instance, everyone but Kyear rates Marshall and McGrath close, even to an extent he too.

I don't see the inconsistency. I still put Hobbs in the top ten cricketers of all-time and top 5 bats ever. I still put Marshall and McGrath no.1 and 2 pacers. And Laker and Grimmett > Ashwin. I consider Lyon a better spinner than Ashwin and don't think Lyon is in the five best spinners ever.

 

[capt_Luffy]

I don't see the inconsistency. I still put Hobbs in the top ten cricketers of all-time and top 5 bats ever. I still put Marshall and McGrath no.1 and 2 pacers. And Laker and Grimmett > Ashwin. I consider Lyon a better spinner than Ashwin and don't think Lyon is in the five best spinners ever.

Yeah, will talk about it sometimes later again.

 

[kyear2]

I know, I also agree plenty with him, but there are certain players his criticism is most often irrational and they include Ashwin, Jadeja, Kallis, Ambrose and Lara.
On a separate note though, I was re-reading the Kensington crowd part in Sunny Days and I don't think that really was racist. Biased and very opinionated and way too harsh yes, but not sure if there is really a racist connotation. His treatment of Doshi and comment after Hookes death were worse.

Exactly. It's over the top and all for obvious reasons.

Can't really complain then..... If I have a bias against any batter, it's probably a bit against Ponting.

Probably?

 

[subshakerz]

Exactly. It's over the top and all for obvious reasons.

How can all these players be explained by Imran bias? What do Ashwin, Sehwag, Hobbs and Lara have to do with him?

 

[kyear2]

Yeah, and even I think older players like Laker should be scrutinized equally and there poor away record should not be glossed over, like you do, just to prove them>Jadeja, Ashwin. Found it funny after all that you somehow questioned Hobbs...... Especially funny, you don't even rate Grum, but still voted for him against Ashwin and yourself admitted that. "See a player get overrated" My butt, after this you will have the audacity to say that. Like for instance, everyone but Kyear rates Marshall and McGrath close, even to an extent he too.

Never said they weren't close.
I have them clearly 1 / 2 / 3. Doesn't mean there's a gulf, they are in the same tier.

 

[kyear2]

How can all these players be explained by Imran bias? What do Ashwin, Sehwag, Hobbs and Lara have to do with him?

You know very well the reasons for Ashwin and Jadeja.

Ambrose and Kallis and now the other two and for Imran

Lara is to prove the distinction and gap between him and Sachin.

 

[subshakerz]

Never said they weren't close.
I have them clearly 1 / 2 / 3. Doesn't mean there's a gulf, they are in the same tier.

Sure...

 

[capt_Luffy]

Never said they weren't close.
I have them clearly 1 / 2 / 3. Doesn't mean there's a gulf, they are in the same tier.

I already said that. I mentioned you because you are probably the only one to have Marshall Top 3 and still don't think the Gulf is huge. The idea that Marshall is getting overrated is quite wild to me.

 

[subshakerz]

You know very well the reasons for Ashwin and Jadeja.

Ambrose and Kallis and now the other two and for Imran

Lara is to prove the distinction and gap between him and Sachin.

No I don't. Please level your accusation clearly because in the past you stated that I am not doing it out of nationalist or anti-India bias.

And how does critiquing Marshall and Hadlee whom clearly I rate ahead of Imran make sense to you?

As for Lara, why would I think to do that? Most of CW already rate Sachin ahead? My away critiques came when I was comparing Smith who I preferred to Lara.

You should be more careful hurling allegations.

 

[subshakerz]

I already said that. I mentioned you because you are probably the only one to have Marshall Top 3 and still don't think the Gulf is huge. The idea that Marshall is getting overrated is quite wild to me.

If I say Marshall is the best bowler ever but also overrated, what does that mean to you?

 

[capt_Luffy]

If I say Marshall is the best bowler ever but also overrated, what does that mean to you?

That means that you think Marshall is the best bowler but also overrated

 

[kyear2]

I already said that. I mentioned you because you are probably the only one to have Marshall Top 3 and still don't think the Gulf is huge. The idea that Marshall is getting overrated is quite wild to me.

There's a wide open gap for players to enter into the top 3 position. For the record I also have McGrath and Hadlee in the top 6.

If you go according the Wisden votes, the candidates are Richards, Hobbs and Warne

If you go by the boring for the Cricinfo team the top vote getters would be Warne and Sachin.

Can you tell me that Marshall doesn't have as good an argument as any of them for 3rd.

A quarter of the forum are arguing that bowlers are more valuable, yet they are mostly ignored. Outside of Bradman no one had a massive advantage over anyone else, so why can't the best bowler, a certified match winner and objectively a better bowler than Warne, be no. 3?

Bradman
Sobers
Marshall
Hobbs
McGrath / Hadlee
Richards
Tendulkar

That's my absolute top tier.

 

[capt_Luffy]

There's a wide open gap for players to enter into the top 3 position. For the record I also have McGrath and Hadlee in the top 6.

If you go according the Wisden votes, the candidates are Richards, Hobbs and Warne

If you go by the boring for the Cricinfo team the top vote getters would be Warne and Sachin.

Can you tell me that Marshall doesn't have as good an argument as any of them for 3rd.

A quarter of the forum are arguing that bowlers are more valuable, yet they are mostly ignored. Outside of Bradman no one had a massive advantage over anyone else, so why can't the best bowler, a certified match winner and objectively a better bowler than Warne, be no. 3?

Bradman
Sobers
Marshall
Hobbs
McGrath / Hadlee
Richards
Tendulkar

That's my absolute top tier.

Yeah, and I don't think there's any problem with that. He definitely have an argument, but I don't necessarily rate him that high. My Top tier is also around the same, though the order isn't, and Viv isn't there (just hoping it is Viv not Barry) for Imran.

 

[subshakerz]

There's a wide open gap for players to enter into the top 3 position. For the record I also have McGrath and Hadlee in the top 6.

If you go according the Wisden votes, the candidates are Richards, Hobbs and Warne

If you go by the boring for the Cricinfo team the top vote getters would be Warne and Sachin.

Can you tell me that Marshall doesn't have as good an argument as any of them for 3rd.

You are defying cricket consensus, which you care so much about to downplay Imran, in rating Marshall so high.

And didn't you rate Hobbs behind Tendulkar?

 

[kyear2]

You are defying cricket consensus, which you care so much about to downplay Imran, in rating Marshall so high.

And didn't you rate Hobbs behind Tendulkar?

Wisden's all time cricket team

Grace
Hobbs
Bradman
Tendulkar
Richards
Sobers
Knott
Akram
Marshall
Warne
Barnes

Cricinfo all time team

Hobbs
Hutton
Bradman
Richards
Tendulkar
Sobers
Gilchrist
Akram
Marshall
Warne
Lillee

The highlighted names are the ones who made both teams.

I don't see how you can be the theirs best player ever and can make neither.

With regards to Sachin and Hobbs, Sachin was better, Hobbs was the one Bradman passed to be the GOAT, and was the original Master, and deserves to be revered as the 2nd highest batsman behind Bradman. Nothing sinister about it, I have him above Richards as well, who I also have rated as a batsman above him.