• Welcome to the Cricket Web forums, one of the biggest forums in the world dedicated to cricket.

    You are currently viewing our boards as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community you will have access to post topics, respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join the Cricket Web community today!

    If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us.

Kallis Vs Ambrose

Kallis Vs Ambrose


  • Total voters
    27
  • This poll will close: .

kyear2

International Coach
The problem is you are suggesting that internationally Wasim is regarded as a better cricketer than Imran. That is just so patently absurd and contrary to reality that I am beginning to wonder if you even care about your rep when making such statements.

Forget his Cricinfo profile or every second article where he is introduced as Pakistan greatest cricketer or multiple cricket lists or the opinion of virtually every peer or pundit.

Yes, Wasim is regarded as a better bowler only, which is my point why he was selected. You want to squirm from this.


Whenever you get desperate, you start to cite polls as if they are concrete fact. Of course you won't cite polls here that put Imran as no.3 because it doesn't suit your point.

Anyways, you entirely miss the point. Tendulkar, Warne, Viv etc were universally hailed by peers, public and pundits in their time with hype that Marshall never got. That is why people are more comfortable putting them as no3. You never denied that btw so I assume you agree. Marshall then by your standards isn't a good fit for no.3 by defying cricketer consensus.

And yeah, if we have a roster of cricketers, then it depends completely on the make up of the team. If no.3 is an AR and there we decide that only one AR can make the team, then he doesn't play. Which is exactly how Wisden and Cricinfo picked their XI and why Imran is the AR in Cricinfos second XI. Are you just trying to deceive us.

Yes because there are more bats to compete with than bowlers. Simple logic that you also use to value a no.7 bat like Lara with a number 4 bowler like Steyn.
I genuinely find it hilarious how you argue.
Using polls against you, when you say something as fact, with nothing to back it up isn't desperate, it's evidence that your opinion isn't the only one.

You have no idea how Wisden selected it's team, so to continuously repeat that they could only choose one all rounder is literally lying.
Even for the Cricinfo team, if it were second vs a close third it's not 50 - 0.
I will contend that if they wanted any player in either team, they would have adapted to make it happen. If you're seen as the 3rd best player ever, as you phrase it, he makes the team, at least one of them.

They are many former cricketers and writers who rates Wasim among the best ever, and to make both teams is a ridiculous achievement, especially for someone as yourself that values peer rating higher than anyone.

My issue with you, that Coronis's list highlights, is that you use one standard for Imran and a total other for Kallis, which as I've pointed out on multiple occasions makes no sense.

If Sobers is no. 2, and we're using cumulative ratings, Kallis is either 3 or 4, no lower. He has the massive average, with your only critique being that the didn't bat fast enough in some scenarios, he has his valuable 4th to 5th bowling role and his ridiculous catching.

But again, that's why you focus so hard on him isn't it.
 

subshakerz

Hall of Fame Member
I genuinely find it hilarious how you argue.
Using polls against you, when you say something as fact, with nothing to back it up isn't desperate, it's evidence that your opinion isn't the only one.

You have no idea how Wisden selected it's team, so to continuously repeat that they could only choose one all rounder is literally lying.
Even for the Cricinfo team, if it were second vs a close third it's not 50 - 0.
Let me repeat, this is likely no pundit on Earth that considers Wasim Pakistan's greatest cricketer. That's just a fantasy.

It is painfully obvious that Wisden and Cricinfo decided to go with the three best bowlers, not another AR, and excluded Imran. Cricinfo was explicit about this. Wisden has countless time said Imran is Pakistan's best and rated him in lists as such. Stop lying.

I will contend that if they wanted any player in either team, they would have adapted to make it happen. If you're seen as the 3rd best player ever, as you phrase it, he makes the team, at least one of them.

They are many former cricketers and writers who rates Wasim among the best ever, and to make both teams is a ridiculous achievement, especially for someone as yourself that values peer rating higher than anyone.
That is conjecture. Sometimes a team makeup leads to excluding better ranked players. It happens.

Wasim was rated that as a bowler and given a place as a bowler. It's not that hard to understand.

My issue with you, that Coronis's list highlights, is that you use one standard for Imran and a total other for Kallis, which as I've pointed out on multiple occasions makes no sense.

If Sobers is no. 2, and we're using cumulative ratings, Kallis is either 3 or 4, no lower. He has the massive average, with your only critique being that the didn't bat fast enough in some scenarios, he has his valuable 4th to 5th bowling role and his ridiculous catching.

But again, that's why you focus so hard on him isn't it.
Kallis isn't nearly as good as Imran in primary and secondary disciplines. I don't even consider Kallis an ATG as a bat. Imran is comparable with Sobers, not Kallis.
 

Coronis

International Coach
Let me repeat, this is likely no pundit on Earth that considers Wasim Pakistan's greatest cricketer. That's just a fantasy.

It is painfully obvious that Wisden and Cricinfo decided to go with the three best bowlers, not another AR, and excluded Imran. Cricinfo was explicit about this. Wisden has countless time said Imran is Pakistan's best and rated him in lists as such. Stop lying.


That is conjecture. Sometimes a team makeup leads to excluding better ranked players. It happens.

Wasim was rated that as a bowler and given a place as a bowler. It's not that hard to understand.


Kallis isn't nearly as good as Imran in primary and secondary disciplines. I don't even consider Kallis an ATG as a bat. Imran is comparable with Sobers, not Kallis.
Kallis’ bowling is definitely better than Imran’s batting
 

subshakerz

Hall of Fame Member
Kallis’ bowling is definitely better than Imran’s batting
Nope. Kallis the bowler is overrated. Maybe at the beginning of their career was very much 4th seamer level, but Kallis's bowling decline in the last 2/3rd. Overall bowls around 10 overs an innings, less than 2 wickets a game, not enough to consider as an average bowler based on load unlike Sobers.

Whereas Imran, even if we account that his average may be boosted a couple of points or so, was pretty much an average bat for his era overall, and even played as such when injured in bowling.
 

Bolo.

International Captain
The original writeup on cricinfo about the cricinfo team had a sentence about Akram that said, IIRC, ''Is he there strictly there for variety?''.

It's amusingly contemptuous, but not entirely wrong. He's a pretty solid ATG XI pick, but picking him just on bowling quality would be iffy.
 

subshakerz

Hall of Fame Member
The original writeup on cricinfo about the cricinfo team had a sentence about Akram that said, IIRC, ''Is he there strictly there for variety?''.

It's amusingly contemptuous, but not entirely wrong. He's a pretty solid ATG XI pick, but picking him just on bowling quality would be iffy.
Yup. I recall they mentioning that that was the sole decision that could be argued with.
 

Coronis

International Coach
Nope. Kallis the bowler is overrated. Maybe at the beginning of their career was very much 4th seamer level, but Kallis's bowling decline in the last 2/3rd. Overall bowls around 10 overs an innings, less than 2 wickets a game, not enough to consider as an average bowler based on load unlike Sobers.

Whereas Imran, even if we account that his average may be boosted a couple of points or so, was pretty much an average bat for his era overall, and even played as such when injured in bowling.
Its literally the same for both of them. Imran’s average flatters him due to low output and Kallis’ flatters him due to lower bowling load.
 

subshakerz

Hall of Fame Member
Its literally the same for both of them. Imran’s average flatters him due to low output and Kallis’ flatters him due to lower bowling load.
Except Imran actually played as a specialist bat quite a bit in his career, and overall would make it to most teams of his era which was tougher for bats anyways. The low output is due to him starting as a number 8 and then moving to 7 and downwards.

On what basis do you think Kallis' bowling was 'definitely better'? Imran literally won MOS awards based solely on his batting. Remove minnows and Kallis' bowling record is even poorer.
 
Last edited:

Coronis

International Coach
Yeah cause Imran’s batting isn’t propped up by crap Indian bowling or sedate pitches against NZ.
 

Xix2565

International Regular
Think this comparison is pretty even, since I don't quite rate Kallis's bowling (and general AR ability) as highly as some others do. He probably does get the edge though, didn't suck as much vs India as Ambrose (/s).
 

OverratedSanity

Request Your Custom Title Now!
Notably, Imran’s only ton against Australia (where Wasim also scored a ton) came without Alderman, where Australia had two bowlers who averaged 40.
The attack still had Hughes and Rackemann, that's two good bowlers. That also wasn't the only runs he scored vs Australia because he averaged a respectable 33 vs them even if you ignore the hundred you're talking about.

You're making a valiant kyear-esque attempt trying to equate this with Kallis taking 5fers agaibst Javed omar and Mohammad ashraful but I think it's falling pretty flat.
 

Coronis

International Coach
The attack still had Hughes and Rackemann, that's two good bowlers. That also wasn't the only runs he scored vs Australia because he averaged a respectable 33 vs them even if you ignore the hundred you're talking about.

You're making a valiant kyear-esque attempt trying to equate this with Kallis taking 5fers agaibst Javed omar and Mohammad ashraful but I think it's falling pretty flat.
Actually I was thinking more of him taking 5’fers against Lara and Shiv and Vaughan/Trescothick/Stewart. Plus you know, almost all of his best performances with the ball being in wins, unlike Imran with the bat.

Its not a huge difference, but I’ll slightly take Kallis with the ball over Imran the bat.
 

howitzer

State Captain
Kallis was a bit of a minnow basher as a bowler tbh. Averaged 37 against the non terrible (non WI/Ban/Zim) batting lineups. Imran was a decent to good bat against mostly everyone.
This is definitely the case for the last 60% or so of his career when he was no more than a bowler who gave the specialists a rest against Test standard opposition. I would argue he was quite a bit better than that in the earlier portion of his career up to and including the 2003 series in England though.

I'm not sure I would call the Zimbabwe batting order Kallis took 7/112 at Bloemfontein in 1999 against minnow level. That was the period they had Goodwin and Johnson as well as the Flower brothers in the team so not a bad side.

West Indies batting in that earlier period were definitely not what I would call minnow level. The 2001 side he played in the West Indies (20 wickets at sub 20) in particular had decent batting. Lara, Gayle and Hooper (who was in his later career phase when he actually found some consistency) played all five. Sarwan played four and was a Test class bat too. Chanderpaul only played a couple but hey ho. It's not like Samuels or Hinds were the absolute pits either. I've seen plenty worse than them in Test cricket.

Funnily enough, I would actually on balance consider the NZ batting orders of the time that he struggled against weaker than these. I'm looking at the Wellington game in 1999 where he had match figures of 1/94 and NZ's top six were Young, Horne, Twose, Astle, Stead and Harris. That's a grand total of zero batsmen who averaged over 40 and half of them averaged less than 30. Had he performed against that lot that would have been minnow bashing. Shaun Pollock and Steve Elworthy had quite a bit of fun I notice.
 

Top