the big bambino
International Captain
His consistency is in his agendas. His justifications shamelessly contradictory to support them.
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How much did slip cordons affect McGrath's and Wasim's records?
- Thread starter subshakerz
- Start date
kyear2
International Coach
Yes, the question was how much?
Feel free to give exact numbers the way .being asked to
kyear2
International Coach
Never said not, how.much so you though? Because I've never applied to a number to it? Have you?
One mentally adjusts everyone, I have never put a number to any of them? Have you? Feel free to share.
kyear2
International Coach
And I fully agree.
kyear2
International Coach
Please specify which agenda I have, greatly interested.
capt_Luffy
Cricketer Of The Year
You still haven't answered the one question I had; how come Don and Sobers have a difference similar to Sachin and Richards, but Headley from the same era with a fraction of his matches and average and playing against plenty English B teams is still an ATG??
subshakerz
Hall of Fame Member
I specifically said a non-exact estimate. Round off. Please give it.
the big bambino
International Captain
oh please. we're all fanbois but the concentration of parochialism in your posts are at insane levels.
kyear2
International Coach
It's statements like this that illustrates so much. The most difficult ones are the ones that are dying and have to be caught moving forward, the half chances that are turned into wickets. That's what Waugh did best, and also yes, there's examples of Punter making the "flying" ones as well.
Also look at some of the catches guys like Hooper, Lloyd, Kallis, Richards and Richardson made, the reach and range were ridiculous.
I've posted examples of all types in various threads. But there's a reason why he's considered the best.
The rest isn't for you but not typing twice...
Acknowledging the fact that it made a difference in wins and losses doesn't automatically extend to being able to put a number on everything.
One can watch Viv bat, tests and WSC, and look at the bowlers he faced and see that his quality extends beyond his average.
Conversely on can look at Sangakkara Weekes and others and between their individual breakdowns, pitches played on are eras they played in and determine that the averages aren't quite on par.
I have never sat down and applied a number to any of them.
You watch, read and listen and come to a conclusion, the only agenda being perpetrating right now is by the OP to try to prove a point that doesn't exist.
Wasim had many influencing factors, both up and down and really was the most difficult cricketer to rate. The peer reviews are off the chart, yet no one here, not even the OP rates him that highly here, well besides everyone knows who.
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kyear2
International Coach
I'm listening.
smash84
The Tiger King
You know very well.
But I will play along.
- Unbelievable contortions to put Sobers as greater than Bradman while overlooking all the contradictions inherent in those arguments when applied to other players
- Your agenda against Imran has been transparent for more than a decade (home umpiring and ball tampering are the reasons he has a good record)
- Choosing context when it suits you putting your favourite players up, while ignoring all the others
- Slip fielding is as important a secondary skill as bowling (which is total nonsense), yet Wasim can't be ranked higher because he had **** slip fielders which led to him losing so many wickets
The list is long, I am just pointing the tip of the iceberg
the big bambino
International Captain
Don't forget knocking everyone else down because "eras" or "conditions" yet somehow not adjusting for west indian bowlers who benefitted from spicy pitches, low over rates lack of protective equipment etc that they'd have to contend with today.
the big bambino
International Captain
Why wait? Be proactive and start one yourself. See you 17 pages in.
sledger
Spanish_Vicente
Ha, that's a good one.
kyear2
International Coach
Sobers comes and goes, I'm not the only one who's ever called Sobers the greatest cricketer ever. I've seen Ian Chappell and even Keith Miller say the same. There's literally a song citing him.as the "the greatest cricketer the world has ever seen".
I know what you're referring to, so let's address it. How does it Impact Sobers and not Imran? Sobers is arguably the 2nd best batsman, for me personally he's 3rd when forced to rank. He was a front line bowler who bowlers 3 different types and went a decade averaging 73 and 28(?), added to that he was an ATG slip fielder and most versatile close catcher. That's ATG top tier in 2 skills and most versatile ever in a 3rd.
Imran starts off as the 8th best bowler, 8th. He's not in my nor most people's top tier. That doesn't include the ball tampering and perceived home umpiring advantages that you believe that I made up. In the Cricinfo team he lost out 50 - 0 in the head to head, it wasn't close.
You think I have an agenda, the entire forum ranks the dude constantly 8th a a bowler, and yes, the referenced topics were factors for his home record and most accept that. Was it totally responsible, no, but he's also the only one from that era who had such a disproportionate home and away record, especially strange since Pakistan was supposedly the most difficult to play in. You believe it's all made up, the truth is somewhere in the middle. Should I also says that Subz has an agenda against Lara as well, Coronis vs Viv? All opinions.based on perception of record. You believe that I have an agenda against him, but even in the poll that was started, he's 4th in the voting. He a candidate but we'll short of the lock you believe, basically my point of view. I'm just more vocal than others.
Slip fielding is at least as important a skill as lower order batting and reserve bowling. It's been borne out in recent history. The fact that you refuse to acknowledge that is a you issue. I asked Subz a simple question. Would Australia or the WI have given up their slip cordons for a stronger lower order, the answer was a clear no. Want to flip it to an ATG scenario? With an attack of Marshall / McGrath/ Hadlee / Warne and a batting lineup that includes Bradman / Tendulkar / Richards / Sobers / Gilchrist. In your honest opinion, which is likely to be more crucial to the team's success. Each of those bowlers got the vast majority of their victims caught behind the wickets and were afforded only the best support, think it wouldn't be crucial there as well?
And I never said lower order batting isn't important, it can help to save matches, but both of the other specified secondary disciples are more (not exclusively) a feature of weaker teams with brittle middle orders and less penetrative attacks. This team suffers from neither.
.who said Wasim can't be ranked higher, that's never what this discussion was about. Your friend wasn't to out an exact number to it, just like he wanted to know how much to discount Imran for having to bowl in Pakistan. I said, pages ago, that yes it was a factor, even last night that I will look into his numbers and do some more reading and watching on him and Imran. But that not enough, I have to say he was better than McGrath, but he wasn't. But yes, it did hurt his career, I never denied that.
The list isn't long and we agree on most things, I just refuse to coronate Imran as the God you think he is. There's multiple posters who believe Imran is better than Bradman, do you go after them? Benaud called him the greatest all round cricketer citing all 3 disciplines. I'm not even saying that it's unarguably Sobers, it switches for me as well, but there's no doubt he was more valuable to his team than any cricketer ever. There no contortions, he is an upper pantheon, tip tier batsman and slip fielder and the most versatile bowler ever. Don't you think that's worth even a discussion? And Imran yes, I hate him so much he's in my top 10, and to suggest that he's not definitely (possibly is) in my first XI is grounds to say I'm biased when out of 48 votes he's revived only 18 in the ongoing poll, is at best disingenuous. Unless of course all of us are biased against him.
So....
- there no lock that Sobers is no. 1 over Bradman, but there's an argument that can be made, no contortions required.
- no agenda vs Imran. It annoys me how some ignore the obvious, but he was a top 10 player of all time. He's a Titan of the game and in the pantheon of greats.
- difference between context and excuses, as deep as I'm going into that. Been too long already.
- will never back down, slip fielding is at least as important as lower order batting and relief bowling. At least...It's been a feature of every great team in modern history, an an invaluable one. Give me your counter argument.
- I have constantly said Wasim was for me the hardest player to rate, I have also said that it did hurt his career, so did the early start and comprised end. He also had his built in advantages that aided him greatly. I will look into his career though, because he was a genius. But look at the names ahead of him
Marshall, McGrath, Hadlee, Steyn, Murali, Warne, Ambrose, Imran, Lillee... That's it.
subshakerz
Hall of Fame Member
This is called dodging. I didn't ask for an exact number, I asked for an estimate range of catches you imagine would be gained from a poor to great cordon.
Yet you applied numbers of converting slip catches into runs. Apparently that wasn't going too far but trying to estimate how many catches a cordon would grant you is.
kyear2
International Coach
Ahh brilliant. Who have I knocked down? Bradman, the guy is is undisputed as the greatest ever? Who else?
We didn't have spicy pitches, we had two that were fast, one that was slow as hell, one slow and uneven and one so flat that it was dead. Again, you're thinking of Hadlee and to a lesser extent extent, Lillee.
Protective equipment was introduced in WSC, so all of Marshall's career, the batsmen were protected. You're again thinking about Lillee, easy mistake.
How did slower over rates help the bowlers? and if you think that was new, look into Hutton's career.
Also, there was a converted effort to stunt our progress and countless rules were introduced with that in mind, not to add narratives created. Despite what we hear now, they weren't pleased that the boys from the Caribbean dominated world cricket for so long.
kyear2
International Coach
Is it? I've asked the same question previously. If it's far behind, would any of the successive powerhouses from the 70's from Australia, WI, Aus, SA have swapped those low important slip fielders for a better lower order. It's a simple question.
Another simple question, which would be more detrimental to a team's success, consistent dropped catches, or not much contribution from their no. 11?
You'll create narratives with nothing but a spread sheet, having removed actually watching and applying nuance to see how success was achieved. Somehow stat sheet stuffing is more important than winning. Is India going to drop Bumrah if he doesn't improve his batting?
Again, yes, lower order batting is important, it can help save to save games, but not to the point where you select all of your bowlers based on their batting acumen. Makes no sense.