How much did slip cordons affect McGrath's and Wasim's records?

[subshakerz]

And no, the premise of comparing Sobers and Martin is idiotic and wouldn't ever be competing for the same spot, considering that one is an ATG batsman.

It was fun to see you drop Sobers, whom you literally rate better than Bradman and the greatest cricketer in history, in favor of Martin in your XI.

 

[kyear2]

Here's why I think you are refusing to answer this: the moment you give some semblance of a range for catches gained by a great cordon (which you do have in your mind and otherwise would if this conversation was about anyone else), I will immediately apply that to a statistical estimate of impact on Wasim and McGrath's careers.

And because you already have their ranking set in stone, you will refuse to entertain this idea.

It's kinda pathetic though. I prefer if you actually stuck by the logic of your stated principles. But you won't, even for a thread dedicated to the very point you have been trying to make.

You are so incredibly disingenuous and intellectually dishonest in the way you argue.

The only argument you could possibly be trying to make is that I have something vs Pakistani pacers.

Yes Wasim started early, yes he had his health challenges at the end of his career, yes he suffered more than almost any ATG guy from dropped catches.

Don't you think all of that is considered by most posters on the forum when looking at his career? Wasim was a great bowler, even when they played I thought Ambrose was better, I think quite a few did. I don't think we were using starguru at the time.

And my main question to you is, why the fixation on the comparison with McGrath specifically? All of them had superb support, not just him.


Yes, McGrath had tremendous support, probably equalled only by what we and subsequently SA had. So are we dropping all of them because Wasim didn't? Warne, Murali as well? Hadlee, Lillee, Davidson?

I don't get the point of all this, to say Wasim was better?


I saw most of Pigeons career, his rivalry with Lara was epic, sometimes one sided, but it is what it is. The only bowler in the history of the game I'm taking over him was the late Malcolm Marshall.

I've already pointed out built in advantages Wasim had as well and that literally led to his selection by Cricinfo and Wisden to their all time teams. Personally I believe that his odi exploits played into it, but it's still a ridiculous honor.

But I'll tell you what, I'll apparently have some free time the next few days, and was planning on a deep dive into Imran's and Barry's careers (sure there was someone else's as well). I'll also try to do one on Wasim's as well.

I've also previously said, and I'm sure you've seen it, that he's literally the hardest player for me to rate. And it was never his raw stats, just so many little flags.

 

[kyear2]

It was fun to see you drop Sobers, whom you literally rate better than Bradman and the greatest cricketer in history, in favor of Martin in your XI.

Then you would come with bullshit about gentlemanly conversations. Please...

Here's why I think you are refusing to answer this: the moment you give some semblance of a range for catches gained by a great cordon (which you do have in your mind and otherwise would if this conversation was about anyone else), I will immediately apply that to a statistical estimate of impact on Wasim and McGrath's careers.

And because you already have their ranking set in stone, you will refuse to entertain this idea.

It's kinda pathetic though. I prefer if you actually stuck by the logic of your stated principles. But you won't, even for a thread dedicated to the very point you have been trying to make.

Now seeing your comment about me having a number in my head.

You are ****ing ridiculous, what is wrong with you?

We're to the point now where you're telling me what's in my head?

I've literally told you on multiple occasions that I don't know. I don't know about you, but I didn't major in actuarial studies.

I've also said, that without doubt it helps with the bowler's and even more importantly, the team's success. Some of the greatest teams ever, wouldn't have been quite as successful without it.

Again, if you want to accuse me disliking Pakistani cricketers, then say so, but please just stop being a dick.

 

[subshakerz]

You are so incredibly disingenuous and intellectually dishonest in the way you argue.

The only argument you could possibly be trying to make is that I have something vs Pakistani pacers.

Yes Wasim started early, yes he had his health challenges at the end of his career, yes he suffered more than almost any ATG guy from dropped catches.

Don't you think all of that is considered by most posters on the forum when looking at his career? Wasim was a great bowler, even when they played I thought Ambrose was better, I think quite a few did. I don't think we were using starguru at the time.

And my main question to you is, why the fixation on the comparison with McGrath specifically? All of them had superb support, not just him.


Yes, McGrath had tremendous support, probably equalled only by what we and subsequently SA had. So are we dropping all of them because Wasim didn't? Warne, Murali as well? Hadlee, Lillee, Davidson?

I literally told you I also rate McGrath ahead of Wasim. I don't have an agenda to get Wasim ahead.

I just wanted a number for what you think great slip cordons gain.

That's it. Not that complicated. But you will never answer the question, instead it's this rambling non-answer.

I know you have an issue with Imran, now though I am beginning to suspect it may be more than just him.

Now seeing your comment about me having a number in my head.

You are ****ing ridiculous, what is wrong with you?

We're to the point now where you're telling me what's in my head?

I've literally told you on multiple occasions that I don't know. I don't know about you, but I didn't major in actuarial studies.

You know how I can tell you are BSing us? Because you didn't have a problem speculating how much slip catches translate into runs in your earlier threads. You didn't have a problem speculating how much Bradman would really average today in an earlier thread.

Yet suddenly when the stat may go against your narrative, you want to appeal to ignorance. Like I said, it's pathetic.

 

[kyear2]

Found this post from 10 years ago, for @subshakerz and especially Smali @smash84 , who has literally accused me of coming into this forum to for the sole purpose of disparaging Imran's name (God only knows why)

Sir Jack Hobbs
Sir Leonard Hutton
Sir Donald Bradman*
Sir I.V.A. Richards^
Sachin Tendulkar
Sir Garfield Sobers(5)^
Adam Gilchrist+
Imran Khan(3)
Malcolm Marshall(1)
Shane Warne(4)^
Glenn McGrath(2)

Seven of the players are automatic selections but can easily replace McGrath and Imran by Lillee and Barnes and Tendulkar has his rivals as well.
As it stands the team has good batting depth with batting to NO. 10, three great slip fielders and the greatest most versatile 5th bowler of the all.

Jack Hobbs is the greatest opening batsman of all time who mastered sticky wickets and was the original Master.

Len Hutton broke Bradman's highest score record at 22 with the great man in the offside while facing Tiger O'Reilly. He suffered a horrendous injury during the war which left him with one hand shorter than the next and still went on to be the best post war batsman before Sobers who dominated some of the best bowling tandems in history including Lindwall and Miller and Ramadin and Valentine in their pomp. He was England's first professional captain and a good one at that.

Bradman was the greatest batsman of all time who capitalized better than anyone of a perfect storm and demonstrated unparalleled consistently and a thirst for runs and big scores. His average of 99.94 will never be approached far less surpassed. He was an astute captain and captained one of the greatest teams of all time. When Wisden choose their 5 Cricketers of the century his was the only unanimous selection.

Viv Richards was the most destructive batsman of all time who faced some of the greatest bowlers ever in the original bowlers era of the 70's. At his very best he challenges Bradman for the greatest batsman of all time. He was the best fielder of his era and a great slip fielder and successful captain as well.

Sachin Tendulkar holds every major career batting record in the game and exhibited perfect technique and temperament for his career and in this team acts as a buffer between the carnage above and below him to provide stability. He edges out Lara, Headley and Chappel for this spot due to his sheer weight of numbers and consistency.

Sobers is the greatest cricketer to have played the game. A undisputed top 5 if not top 3 batsman who was a superb fielder everywhere especially in the slips and in close to spinners and arguably the best all round fielder ever. He was the best and most versatile 5th bowler in history who played the role of spearhead and stop bowler with first pace then spin in a weak attack and the perfect compliment to Hall and Griffith in later years. He bowler both conventional and over the hand wrist spin and was a brisk and efficient fast medium bowler who could swing the ball back into right handers. As a batsman he was the best of his time, a batsman who often took attacks apart whose best test innings was against a rampaging Lillee at the peak of his powers in a game whose test status was later rescinded. Bradman himself called it the best innings he had witnessed on Australian soil. He could and did beat opponents all three aspects of the game.

Gilchrist changed his position and was the catalyst in one of the greatest teams of all time. He was a superb under rated keeper who had one of the most difficult jobs in cricket in keeping to Warne, and he accomplished it with distinction. As a batsman he was almost a latter day Viv who destroyed bowling attacks from his number 7 position, often breaking the backs of teams with his runs. He excelled in front of and behind the wickets.

Imran along with Hadlee are the best bowling all rounders of all time. Imran was better with the old ball and the bowler who perfected reverse swing. He was especially deadly on his home pitches. After his injury he became an even better batsman and until the end of his career averaged 50 with the bat. He was an inspirational captain for Pakistan whose will guided his team through his era.

Malcolm Marshall statistically and anecdotally was the greatest bowler to have played the game. Marshall had all of the tools and knew how and when to use them. He was genuine express with a deadly skiddy bouncer, could swing the ball both ways at pace and learned the cutter from Lillee. Despite the declining skills of Richards and Greenidge, Holdings frequent injuries and multiple retirements he took the W.I. from an ATG team to the best in history. He never lost a test series and as an opening bowler only lost 4 Tests. He excelled on pitches designed to neutralize him, he was beyond adaptable. His numbers show this, an average below 21, s/r of 47 and WPM of over 4.5. He excelled at home and away and was a genuine match winner with a brilliant cricket brain and had a knack for picking up and exploiting batsmen's weaknesses. He was also a very good no. 8 batsman who came good when required and was seen as an allrounder, where he definitely had the ability if not the consistent application.

Warne was a magician and outside of his struggles in India excelled everywhere. He was one of the big four who made Australia one of the two greatest teams in test cricket and was seen as the primary match winner. Lara said he was the greatest and toughest bowler he ever faced because of his mental toughness and brilliant cricketing mind. His variety of deliveries were subtle and devastating and his match winning spells were countless. He was named, along with Bradman, Sobers, Hobbs and Richards the 5 Wisden cricketers of the century and that in itself speaks volumes. He dominated the biggest and oldest cricket contest and his very first Ashes delivery set the tone for his role in that rivalry. He was probably Australia's greatest test captain they never had and with his efforts on and off the field he captivated the sport during his time. He was a useful and skilled no. 8 batsman and a good slip fielder.

Glenn McGrath like Tendulkar holds every major careen record for fast bowlers and by sheer weight of numbers commands a place on this team. He along with Warne bowled Australia to victories and a spot as one if the very greatest test teams in history and he did it with unerring accurately and subtle seam movement. He was consistent and a metronome who got results, he didn't wow like Akram but he was better and more effective. He didn't excite like Lillee but proved himself everywhere and in a more difficult era and that's how he edged him despite having less tools at his disposal.

Yes, many would disagree with many of the points, but two things.

1. Acknowledge that lower order batting has a place in such a team, just not to the insane degree that Bolo is pushing.

2. Imran featured prominently in the team.

 

[subshakerz]

Then you would come with bull**** about gentlemanly conversations. Please...

Dude we have all seen the receipts. You will prefer a Martin-level bowler in your team and drop Sobers. Even a marginal improvement in bowling will result in all of Sobers' runs to be ignored.

Maybe you should delete your comment if it that embarassing.

 

[subshakerz]

Yes, many would disagree with many of the points, but two things.

1. Acknowledge that lower order batting has a place in such a team, just not to the insane degree that Bolo is pushing.

2. Imran featured prominently in the team.

You sounded a lot more reasonable then. What happened to you?

 

[kyear2]

I literally told you I also rate McGrath ahead of Wasim. I don't have an agenda to get Wasim ahead.

I just wanted a number for what you think great slip cordons gain.

That's it. Not that complicated. But you will never answer the question, instead it's this rambling non-answer.

I know you have an issue with Imran, now though I am beginning to suspect it may be more than just him.



You know how I can tell you are BSing us? Because you didn't have a problem speculating how much slip catches translate into runs in your earlier threads. You didn't have a problem speculating how much Bradman would really average today in an earlier thread.

Yet suddenly when the stat may go against your narrative, you want to appeal to ignorance. Like I said, it's pathetic.

So let me answer you for the 20th time. I do not know.

The only issue I have with Imran was how you and others alternate between blatantly ignoring or making excuses for his ball tampering and other issues. And that has morning to do with him.

I don't recall the exact thread, but @peterhrt brought up an article where a number was given for missed chances, which I don't even remotely recall how much it was.

I personally don't know how one would even come up with said number, but I'm not able to.

With regards to Bradman I also said I don't know, if I had to guess I think I said 60's or 70's? I really don't know.

The argument doesn't go against any narrative, I've consistently said that it's extremely under rated on CW, and it deserves more attention and recognition for the players who were great in those roles

But you see the need to twist everything into an agenda, some argument or made up grievance.

What I find to be pathetic is that almost every single thread you put forward or get your lackey to post for you have some preconceived agenda.

I've said, and repeatedly, and you can look back for them as you usually do. I find Wasim the hardest to rate, said it 5 mins ago.
I've also said I don't have an answer for your question, but you try to bully answers out of people.
You want to accuse me of not liking Pakistani players, go ahead. Smali and Trundler already do.
But to create a bullshit scenario without an actual calculable answer, try to bully me into pulling a number out of my ass and because I can't, to then come to said conclusion is idiotic, manipulative, intellectually dishonest, and yes, to borrow your word. Pathetic.

 

[kyear2]

Dude we have all seen the receipts. You will prefer a Martin-level bowler in your team and drop Sobers. Even a marginal improvement in bowling will result in all of Sobers' runs to be ignored.

Maybe you should delete your comment if it that embarassing.

Are u really this utterly dense?

 

[kyear2]

You sounded a lot more reasonable then. What happened to you?

Realised he had biased home umpires and ball t

Martin played over 70 tests. And for a normal team, I'm always going best bowler.

For our all time team, I have no idea who my 3rd seamer is, it changes weekly. But the other 3 are Marshall, Warne and McGrath. Wouldn't say that's terribly batting deficient.

Let me be clearer.

By saying Martin played 70 tests, I'm saying that despite the fact he couldn't bat he still managed a very long career. And yes, in a normal team, as I said today, I'm always taking the best bowler, example being Bumrah and McGrath despite the fact that they are / legitimate bunnies.

I ignored your analogy because it didn't make any sense, I even said later I'm really not even sure what he's trying to mask there, to which Smali responded.

To which I said, that's never going to be a scenario where that decision would have to be made because Garry is making the team as a batsman.

You know what I'm trying to say, that's why I said that you're intellectually dishonest.

All for a gotcha moment, that you keep repeating.

Literally do better.

 

[subshakerz]

With regards to Bradman I also said I don't know, if I had to guess I think I said 60's or 70's? I really don't know.

But to create a bull**** scenario without an actual calculable answer, try to bully me into pulling a number out of my ass and because I can't, to then come to said conclusion is idiotic, manipulative, intellectually dishonest, and yes, to borrow your word. Pathetic.

You see the contradiction here? You will come up with a rounded number for a Bradman scenario when asked, out of your ass.

Yet not this one. Why? We know why. You don't want to be pinned down.

 

[subshakerz]

Realised he had biased home umpires and ball t

That's the only context you see apparently. I can make a good case that, with context, Imran has a notably better record than Marshall in Australia for example.

And yes, in a normal team, as I said today, I'm always taking the best bowler

Yes thanks for being clearer. Martin > Sobers.

 

[OverratedSanity]

You see the contradiction here? You will come up with a rounded number for a Bradman scenario when asked, out of your ass.

Yet not this one. Why? We know why. You don't want to be pinned down.

The single funniest one was when he spent months parroting the "We don't know how much poor catching hurt Wasim Akram's averages hence we should ignore it entirely" thing. Then the moment someone posted a calculation of how slip fielding is crucial because it saves an estimated 16 runs or something, he responded " wow what a great post "

Straight parody.

 

[ataraxia]

Personally I don't know precisely how good McGrath was so I don't rate him at all.

 

[subshakerz]

The single funniest one was when he spent months parroting the "We don't know how much poor catching hurt Wasim Akram's averages hence we should ignore it entirely. Then the moment someone posted a calculation of how slip fielding is crucial because it saves an estimated 16 runs or something, he responded " wow what a great post "

Straight parody.

You can tell he feels embarassed for his past posting, as much as he does now for suggesting Martin makes his team and not Sobers.

 

[Bolo.]

I was clear to point out that it was a T20 game, but Bumrah is the best bowler in the world, and has similar exploits in test matches as well.

But according to your philosophy, he wouldn't make your team because he's a liability with the bat.

I'm just interested to see who else would share that sentiment.

And no, the premise of comparing Sobers and Martin is idiotic and wouldn't ever be competing for the same spot, considering that one is an ATG batsman.

But yeah, are you choosing, let's say Pollock over Bumrah?

OFC he makes my T20 team. Even if there were 5 slightly worse bowling options with good batting stapled onto them, he'd likely make my side. The impact of batting strength, unlike tests, is not cumulative due to the limited number of balls.

My philosophy in tests is absolutely not one of leaving out bowlers because they are liabilities with the bat. It's to pick the best players in a way that balances the side. Marshall would make my side if he was a batting liability due to bowling quality and variety. Guys like Mcgrath and Steyn don't because there are better players who are very similar bowlers. If there was no Hadlee, I would pick Mcgrath. If there was no Imran, I would seriously consider picking Steyn.

Comparing Sobers and Martin is idiotic. That (and its implications for your team selection philosophy) are kinda the point. Sobers doesn't make my XI on batting alone. Should I pick Martin over him on the 'pick your best bowlers' mantra? What about if Sobers averaged 10 or 20 runs less?

 

[kyear2]

You see the contradiction here? You will come up with a rounded number for a Bradman scenario when asked, out of your ass.

Yet not this one. Why? We know why. You don't want to be pinned down.

Becuse I don't know. How would you even start to calculate such a number.

Considering this is the 3rd time you've tried to adjust bowlers averages. Think the last one was should ac bowlers averages be adjusted for having to play home games there. How did that go?

 

[kyear2]

You can tell he feels embarassed for his past posting, as much as he does now for suggesting Martin makes his team and not Sobers.

I see you and your cartel are out in numbers, so enjoy it.

You know that's not what I said, but continue to push it, just to be an ass.

Now if that's not trolling, I don't know what is.

 

[OverratedSanity]

Please don't accuse me and subshakerz of being a cartel. We disagree more with each other than with you. I think approximately 70% of his posts are stupid in some way. No offense @subshakerz

 

[subshakerz]

Becuse I don't know. How would you even start to calculate such a number.

Considering this is the 3rd time you've tried to adjust bowlers averages. Think the last one was should ac bowlers averages be adjusted for having to play home games there. How did that go?

How are you more confident giving a Bradman estimate than an estimate of catches lost or gained? The latter is a far easier to have an idea.