How much did slip cordons affect McGrath's and Wasim's records?

[subshakerz]

Please don't accuse me and subshakerz of being a cartel. We disagree more with each other than with you. I think approximately 70% of his posts are stupid in some way. No offense @subshakerz

None taken. But at least I don't keep people guessing what my real positions are.

 

[kyear2]

OFC he makes my T20 team. Even if there were 5 slightly worse bowling options with good batting stapled onto them, he'd likely make my side. The impact of batting strength, unlike tests, is not cumulative due to the limited number of balls.

My philosophy in tests is absolutely not one of leaving out bowlers because they are liabilities with the bat. It's to pick the best players in a way that balances the side. Marshall would make my side if he was a batting liability due to bowling quality and variety. Guys like Mcgrath and Steyn don't because there are better players who are very similar bowlers. If there was no Hadlee, I would pick Mcgrath. If there was no Imran, I would seriously consider picking Steyn.

Comparing Sobers and Martin is idiotic. That (and its implications for your team selection philosophy) are kinda the point. Sobers doesn't make my XI on batting alone. Should I pick Martin over him on the 'pick your best bowlers' mantra? What about if Sobers averaged 10 or 20 runs less?

You're creating stupid scenarios.

Sobers is making the team as a batsman. The two sections do not in any way create a conflict.
Martin, if you're choosing him will be one of your 4 bowlers, there's no scenario where you're selecting a team and Sobers will be one of your 4 primary bowlers. He's already there.

You can't pick Martin as the batting all-rounder, somewhere's the comp.

So to get back to the discussion. If you are selecting a team, if he's the best bowler you have available, like literally the best bowler you have in your country, he can't be a liability. His value is in his bowling. Even if you want to build a balanced team and decide your no. 8 should be able to hold a bat, fine. But you can't eliminate your best guy available depending on his batting skills, that's batshit crazy.

If we had to select a world XI right now to go to Proxima / Europa / Enceladus, there's no one replacing Bumrah. I don't care how much he scores. How do you loose track of what their primary goal is.

The guy wins games, home and away, how is that a liability? Explain that for me please.

I don't care how much he scores, Wash kept us respectable for how long? Come on man.

 

[subshakerz]

So to get back to the discussion. If you are selecting a team, if he's the best bowler you have available, like literally the best bowler you have in your country, he can't be a liability. His value is in his bowling. Even if you want to build a balanced team and decide your no. 8 should be able to hold a bat, fine. But you can't eliminate your best guy available depending on his batting skills, that's bat**** crazy.

Yet you are willing to eliminate your best bat depending on his bowling skills.

 

[OverratedSanity]

Quick question, would Marshall be an even better cricketer if he averaged 35 with the bat ? Yes or no.

If yes, why.

 

[kyear2]

How are you more confident giving a Bradman estimate than an estimate of catches lost or gained? The latter is a far easier to have an idea.

What part of I don't know, if I had to guess, then giving a variance of 20 runs confidence.

I've said this multiple times, you can't bully people to say what you want to hear.

I had a long day, also trying to prepare for possibly a cat 3 hurricane, came in here to relax for a bit before bed and you can't help yourself.

You just have to be right.

The last time you got into a row over you India biases, there was literally one person who defended you. Yet everything to Younis some conspiracy.

I consistently have you my answers and you can't take anything but what you want to hear as an answer.
Then you come up with some bullshit about choosing Martin, when you know that wasn't what I was trying to say.

You literally post the most ridiculous ****, all to reach your preconceived agendas. You're literally telling me what I have in my head.

Like literally what the hell is wrong with you.

 

[kyear2]

Yet you are willing to eliminate your best bat depending on his bowling skills.

Again, literally.

What the hell is wrong with you.

 

[subshakerz]

Quick question, would Marshall be an even better cricketer if he averaged 35 with the bat ? Yes or no.

If yes, why.

Guarantee you, @kyear2 would rate McGrath as a better bowler then. We all know it.

 

[subshakerz]

What part of I don't know, if I had to guess, then giving a variance of 20 runs confidence.

I've said this multiple times, you can't bully people to say what you want to hear.

Ok so what is the 'variance of 20 runs confidence' for number of catches from great to poor cordon?

I'm not bullying you. You can just take the L and say you refuse to answer since you don't like the question.

 

[ataraxia]

Becuse I don't know. How would you even start to calculate such a number.

Considering this is the 3rd time you've tried to adjust bowlers averages. Think the last one was should ac bowlers averages be adjusted for having to play home games there. How did that go?

Assuming that – like everyone ever – you take average as a starting point, how on Earth are you meant to rate players without adjusting ... their ... average?

 

[Bolo.]

You're creating stupid scenarios.

Sobers is making the team as a batsman. The two sections do not in any way create a conflict.
Martin, if you're choosing him will be one of your 4 bowlers, there's no scenario where you're selecting a team and Sobers will be one of your 4 primary bowlers. He's already there.

You can't pick Martin as the batting all-rounder, somewhere's the comp.

So to get back to the discussion. If you are selecting a team, if he's the best bowler you have available, like literally the best bowler you have in your country, he can't be a liability. His value is in his bowling. Even if you want to build a balanced team and decide your no. 8 should be able to hold a bat, fine. But you can't eliminate your best guy available depending on his batting skills, that's bat**** crazy.

If we had to select a world XI right now to go to Proxima / Europa / Enceladus, there's no one replacing Bumrah. I don't care how much he scores. How do you loose track of what their primary goal is.

The guy wins games, home and away, how is that a liability? Explain that for me please.

I don't care how much he scores, Wash kept us respectable for how long? Come on man.

I don't pick Sobers as a bat. My team. I already have a quality number 8. Given a choice between Sobers and Martin, who should I pick? The better bowler or the better player?

 

[kyear2]

Assuming that – like everyone ever – you take average as a starting point, how on Earth are you meant to rate players without adjusting ... their ... average?

How much do you adjust Wasim's average for his early start and diabetes at the end?

How much do you adjust Viv's average for playing in the 70's and 80's

How much do you adjust Barrington and Weekes averages that they aren't top 10, Sangakkara's?

 

[capt_Luffy]

How much do you adjust Wasim's average for his early start and diabetes at the end?

How much do you adjust Viv's average for playing in the 70's and 80's

How much do you adjust Barrington and Weekes averages that they aren't top 10, Sangakkara's?

I mean, you know these aren't points in your favour right?? We definitely adjust Viv's and Barrington's averages and that's why almost no one rates Ken ahead (except Coronis).

 

[Kirkut]

As much as I agree that McGrath got very few dismissals through lbw and bowled, he never needed exceptional slip fielding actually. It's not that Mark Waugh was flying all the time to his left and right when McGrath bowled.

 

[capt_Luffy]

As much as I agree that McGrath got very few dismissals through lbw and bowled, he never needed exceptional slip fielding actually. It's not that Mark Waugh was flying all the time to his left and right when McGrath bowled.

Yeah, but when comparing Australia's slip catching with Pakistan's in the 90s, I think the difference in quality becomes VERY clear and significant.

 

[subshakerz]

How much do you adjust Wasim's average for his early start and diabetes at the end?

How much do you adjust Viv's average for playing in the 70's and 80's

How much do you adjust Barrington and Weekes averages that they aren't top 10, Sangakkara's?

Reminder that you adjusted Bradman's modern average...

 

[OverratedSanity]

How much do you adjust Viv's average for playing in the 70's and 80's

Do you not adjust his average ( due to opposition /era/pitch conditions) to some degree mentally when rating him as a batsman ? We know you do, everyone does. If not, he shouldn't even be a candidate for the best batsman since Bradman because his average is relatively unimpressive

 

[Kirkut]

Yeah, but when comparing Australia's slip catching with Pakistan's in the 90s, I think the difference in quality becomes VERY clear and significant.

That is correct. But you can also factor in different bowling styles. Asif who was similar to McGrath rarely bowled in the corridor and always attacked stumps.

 

[capt_Luffy]

That is correct. But you can also factor in different bowling styles. Asif who was similar to McGrath rarely bowled in the corridor and always attacked stumps.

I don't think it's as simple to say "we should drop two runs off Wasim's avg" but I do think that cordon and well, not just the cordon, basically the whole Pakistan fielding let Wasim down and he would had improved with better support.

 

[subshakerz]

Do you not adjust his average ( due to opposition /era/pitch conditions) to some degree mentally when rating him as a batsman ? We know you do, everyone does. If not, he shouldn't even be a candidate for the best batsman since Bradman because his average is relatively unimpressive

This is why I don't see what is the big deal about average adjustment, whether stated or unstated.

 

[Coronis]

There's no scenario if I had to choose between McGrath or Bumrah and Pollock where I'm chosing Pollock.

What about for a peak XI?

49 tests (98-03)
1643 @ 35.71 2 tons 7 fifties
216 @ 18.79 11 5’fers 1 10’fer
46 catches

3 tests against Aus where he averaged 39, under 20 vs everyone else and 23 or under everywhere else.

Can forgive him for Aus, don’t think McGrath or Bumrah ever bowled to a comparable lineup to Hayden, Langer, Ponting, Waugh, Waugh, Martyn, Gilchrist.