Why is it viewed as more important

[smash84]

Averaged 41

Oh....

 

[smash84]

Averaged 41

So outside his peak he was a mixture of Ishant's bad phase and Mohammad Sami?

:S

 

[kyear2]

idk who even knew of this publication before

Even if we've never heard of the publication before, is there anything in it out of bounds?

The article is written by a brief former international umpire who was making observations about a test series as well as commenting on what the importance of slip fielding in cricket.... it was well reasoned and explained his thoughts.

 

[kyear2]

Additionally, it also shows the level of discourse that the forum has reached and is practically akin to politics. Hard right or hard left with no compromise or allowing for the admission of even the slightest concession.

There's nothing wrong with the article, and instead of, heaven forbid actually reading it, it's preferable to just dismiss it along with an idiotic comment about throwing anything against the wall. Just proving how polarized and small minded a very small, but vocal subset of the forum is.

It wasn't even about Imran, or any player for that matter, but alas.

I do have to comment on @OverratedSanity though. I'm sure we agree on very little, and definely not this. But he's reasonable and fair and doesn't enter the conversation with a preconceived conclusion and doesn't distort the argument.

 

[smash84]

I do have to comment on @OverratedSanity though. I'm sure we agree on very little, and definely not this. But he's reasonable and fair and doesn't enter the conversation with a preconceived conclusion and doesn't distort the argument.

Yes, I also notice that you like all of OS's arguments that suit your agenda, and ignore all the other ones that go against it.

 

[TheJediBrah]

Yes, I also notice that you like all of OS's arguments that suit your agenda, and ignore all the other ones that go against it.

Isn't that literally what everyone would do, to everyone, about everything lol

 

[smash84]

Isn't that literally what everyone would do, to everyone, about everything lol

Yeah, but nobody would tag that person and congratulate him for posting while ignoring 99% of the posts that go against one's own argument

 

[TheJediBrah]

while complaining about forum "politics" kyear doesn't realise that OS is neutral on the surface but secretly funds extremist sects sunilz, HB, ma1678

 

[kyear2]

Yeah, but nobody would tag that person and congratulate him for posting while ignoring 99% of the posts that go against one's own argument

Openly said that we disagree on most things, apparently you also just pick up on things that suits your purpose.

And while we're taking about liking whose posts, let's talk about some of the **** posts that you've been liking in this thread and posting that have been obviously lies, misrepresentations or just pure ignorance.

 

[Xix2565]

I think it's a bit rich to preach about lies and ignorance when you in the same breath also try to raise up slip catching as a secondary skill on par with batting and bowling.

 

[smash84]

.

And while we're taking about liking whose posts, let's talk about some of the **** posts that you've been liking in this thread and posting that have been obviously lies, misrepresentations or just pure ignorance.

Which posts did I like that were lies?

 

[kyear2]

Yes, I also notice that you like all of OS's arguments that suit your agenda, and ignore all the other ones that go against it.

None of the last couple posts even had anything to do with Imran, expect the retorts from the human troll, but not you.

But we've been doing this for a decade, so let's discuss.

I have no issues with Imran, unlike Subz who through every player he attacks, be it Ambrose, Kallis, or Steyn, it's directly related to players who the forum rates ahead of or even close to Imran. It was his duty to say Kallis wasn't a match winner with the bat and didn't out in enough work with the ball, and guess the slip catching thing is also part of that as well come to think of it.
He literally stated that it was, and I quote, his mission to bring Ambrose down a tier and open our eyes to how he wasn't as great as Imran. Steyn is too expensive, and not as tight as the others. He does the same thing with Lara every opportunity he gets, then states he's a fan of his.

Now Imran. I think his batting numbers are soft, clearly represented above. His output doesn't come close to his average.

I think that his home bowling numbers are false, you know why, I know why, hence I place a greater emphasis on his away numbers as a truer indicator of how good a bowler his actually was. You deputy keeps saying he was great on flat pitches, yet he was not good at all in India, nor Australia btw, not an easy destination in any era, but more bowling friendly than Pakistan.
His numbers indicate that outside of Pakistan he wasn't in the same tier as his contemporaries of the era and there's no good explanation for such.

The best that I can come up with is that as an inswing bowler, the bounce in Australia and NZ would be a hindrance, but that doesn't explain India. The variance in average is an issue, not enough to exclude him from being a bowling ATG, but enough for me, just me personally l, from having him as a lick in that very exclusive highest of tiers.

As a bowler, he's an ATG, as an all rounder top 2 and top 3 at worst. As an overall cricketer, top 10. Please for the love of God tell me how many of that is radical beyond the pale.

Unlike Subs I don't say as he does about Kallis, that he costs his team more wins than he gives them, or his didn't bowl enough in his absolute batting peak. That, like Subs takes would be idiotic.

All I'm saying is that there are questions there, and I'm not convinced. Doesn't say he was anything other than possibly the 2nd best all rounder ever and among the top 4 capable of changing games and series (I include Gilchrist here) and throughout his career.

It's to the point where I say anything about him other than he's a top 3 player of all time, theses this concentrated hazing from 6 of you, that's not a feature of criticism of any other player. None of this comes close to what he has said about Ambrose, Lara or Kallis, but somehow that one player is off limits is bullshit.

You are free to disagree, and I'm sure some do, but it's a cricket forum not everyone has to agree with you either.

I love this forum, but honestly some of you makes it unbearable at times.

 

[kyear2]

I think it's a bit rich to preach about lies and ignorance when you in the same breath also try to raise up slip catching as a secondary skill on par with batting and bowling.

How is it not? It's a critical part of the game for anyone who's ever watched it. Do you really think that Australia, the West Indies or even SA in it's shorter run would have been successful with out the catching support of those guys? Mark Waugh was crucial to many of those wins.

And the manufactured argument about if Imran was in the WI squad they would have been better, is a srawman argument. That was never argued.

The only point I was making is so very simply, I don't believe that you can have a truly dominant winning team with out a strong cordon, it's been shown you can without a strong tail. That's it, how is that incorrect.

And the entire premise of your question makes no sense, how is proposing something comparable to a lie against someone. Please.

 

[Xix2565]

How is it not? It's a critical part of the game for anyone who's ever watched it. Do you really think that Australia, the West Indies or even SA in it's shorter run would have been successful with out the catching support of those guys? Mark Waugh was crucial to many of those wins.

And the manufactured argument about if Imran was in the WI squad they would have been better, is a srawman argument. That was never argued.

The only point I was making is so very simply, I don't believe that you can have a truly dominant winning team with out a strong cordon, it's been shown you can without a strong tail. That's it, how is that incorrect.

And the entire premise of your question makes no sense, how is proposing something comparable to a lie against someone. Please.

It's not more valuable than batting or bowling. To pretend otherwise is to lie. Sorry, but you've been on this ridiculous point for far too long and it's been bizarre how you would do anything but acknowledge this.

 

[OverratedSanity]

I think that his home bowling numbers are false, you know why, I know why, hence I place a greater emphasis on his away numbers as a truer indicator of how good a bowler his actually was. You deputy keeps saying he was great on flat pitches, yet he was not good at all in India, nor Australia btw, not an easy destination in any era, but more bowling friendly than Pakistan.
His numbers indicate that outside of Pakistan he wasn't in the same tier as his contemporaries of the era and there's no good explanation for such.

The best that I can come up with is that as an inswing bowler, the bounce in Australia and NZ would be a hindrance, but that doesn't explain India. The variance in average is an issue, not enough to exclude him from being a bowling ATG, but enough for me, just me personally l, from having him as a lick in that very exclusive highest of tiers.

The problem I have is that you keep saying this, but have repeatedly ignored the posts I've made proving how so many of the series Imran played overseas (particularly in places like India) were ridiculously batter friendly and were high scoring run fests (for both teams, in case you're trying to say they were high scoring because Imran sucked) which more than explain the marginally higher away average compared to other ATGs. For instance, the repeated insistence in calling his average of 28 in India bad, while ignoring that the 1987 series he played there was one of the most batter friendly series ever played and 4 of the 5 tests were drawn. Kapil struggled massively too. While at the same time, you sing praises of Marshall's 1983 series in India when that series had basically every pace bowler dominating, including an inferior bowler like Kapil who took 29 wickets @18.

You always look at these averages only on the surface level, ignore the context of the numbers, but then bring up relevant context precisely when it suits you. This is exactly why you get ganged up on.

 

[smash84]

You always look at these averages only on the surface level, ignore the context of the numbers, but then bring up relevant context precisely when it suits you. This is exactly why you get ganged up on.

This hits the nail on the head. Conveniently finding context for Sobers bowling average of 113.5 against Pakistan yet refusing to entertain anything for Imran.

None of the last couple posts even had anything to do with Imran, expect the retorts from the human troll, but not you.

But we've been doing this for a decade, so let's discuss.

I have no issues with Imran, unlike Subz who through every player he attacks, be it Ambrose, Kallis, or Steyn, it's directly related to players who the forum rates ahead of or even close to Imran. It was his duty to say Kallis wasn't a match winner with the bat and didn't out in enough work with the ball, and guess the slip catching thing is also part of that as well come to think of it.
He literally stated that it was, and I quote, his mission to bring Ambrose down a tier and open our eyes to how he wasn't as great as Imran. Steyn is too expensive, and not as tight as the others. He does the same thing with Lara every opportunity he gets, then states he's a fan of his.

Now Imran. I think his batting numbers are soft, clearly represented above. His output doesn't come close to his average.

I think that his home bowling numbers are false, you know why, I know why, hence I place a greater emphasis on his away numbers as a truer indicator of how good a bowler his actually was. You deputy keeps saying he was great on flat pitches, yet he was not good at all in India, nor Australia btw, not an easy destination in any era, but more bowling friendly than Pakistan.
His numbers indicate that outside of Pakistan he wasn't in the same tier as his contemporaries of the era and there's no good explanation for such.

The best that I can come up with is that as an inswing bowler, the bounce in Australia and NZ would be a hindrance, but that doesn't explain India. The variance in average is an issue, not enough to exclude him from being a bowling ATG, but enough for me, just me personally l, from having him as a lick in that very exclusive highest of tiers.

As a bowler, he's an ATG, as an all rounder top 2 and top 3 at worst. As an overall cricketer, top 10. Please for the love of God tell me how many of that is radical beyond the pale.

Unlike Subs I don't say as he does about Kallis, that he costs his team more wins than he gives them, or his didn't bowl enough in his absolute batting peak. That, like Subs takes would be idiotic.

All I'm saying is that there are questions there, and I'm not convinced. Doesn't say he was anything other than possibly the 2nd best all rounder ever and among the top 4 capable of changing games and series (I include Gilchrist here) and throughout his career.

It's to the point where I say anything about him other than he's a top 3 player of all time, theses this concentrated hazing from 6 of you, that's not a feature of criticism of any other player. None of this comes close to what he has said about Ambrose, Lara or Kallis, but somehow that one player is off limits is bull****.

You are free to disagree, and I'm sure some do, but it's a cricket forum not everyone has to agree with you either.

I love this forum, but honestly some of you makes it unbearable at times.

God, I don't even know where to begin to address this drivel. Which has already been addressed so many times in this thread already.

Kyear2, you will probably have less people gang up on you if you just come out and state that you think Imran was a cheat, instead of trying to come up with ridiculous arguments that make zero sense in order to bring him down. You clearly have no consistency in your criteria and look dumb trying to make them look logical. So make your life easy, yeah?

 

[TheJediBrah]

Imran was a cheat

I thought everyone knew this

 

[smash84]

I thought everyone knew this

Well, then just state it and move on. What's the arguing for?

 

[subshakerz]

Kyear2, you will probably have less people gang up on you if you just come out and state that you think Imran was a cheat, instead of trying to come up with ridiculous arguments that make zero sense in order to bring him down. You clearly have no consistency in your criteria and look dumb trying to make them look logical. So make your life easy, yeah?

He has it both ways, calls Imran a cheat yet places him no.8 as a bowler (high but not too high) to maintain his respectability. He just doesn't like to be called out for his hypocrisy.

 

[Socerer 01]

Even if we've never heard of the publication before, is there anything in it out of bounds?

The article is written by a brief former international umpire who was making observations about a test series as well as commenting on what the importance of slip fielding in cricket.... it was well reasoned and explained his thoughts.

Additionally, it also shows the level of discourse that the forum has reached and is practically akin to politics. Hard right or hard left with no compromise or allowing for the admission of even the slightest concession.

There's nothing wrong with the article, and instead of, heaven forbid actually reading it, it's preferable to just dismiss it along with an idiotic comment about throwing anything against the wall. Just proving how polarized and small minded a very small, but vocal subset of the forum is.

It wasn't even about Imran, or any player for that matter, but alas.

I do have to comment on @OverratedSanity though. I'm sure we agree on very little, and definely not this. But he's reasonable and fair and doesn't enter the conversation with a preconceived conclusion and doesn't distort the argument.

dude the reason why i even left this thread was because you were taking the responses here too personally with your beliefs, my comment was to question if this was even a known publication since i’ve never heard of it but maybe another Indian did since this country is vast? it was also because some who brought in links to more reputable publications that called certain players greats and atgs were mocked a few weeks ago for posting drivel even if the content they posted was decent

as to the article, i watched that test series written and slip fielding was shoddy on both sides, however i would never claim that England won due to that or India lost due to it, that was clear to anyone watching the series. on the other hand if India had 1 more person holding up one end with the bat at Edgbaston to support Kohli they would have won the test, likewise England’s entire series win was down to Sam Curran making vital lower order contributions and picking up crucial wickets, you’ve been arguing mercilessly against the latter. India’s only win in that series? it was because a bowling all rounder turned the test around with a flurry of wickets, another thing you dismissed as being overrated

this is the sort of context that you’re either consciously or unconsciously omitting in all of your posts here, i choose to believe its the latter because i doubt you watched a modern series that didnt involve a team you support or remember it when it was a few years ago

i pulled up similar context omission with you excluding the Indian team few years ago in your list, i even specifically mentioned them as “the next best team of their times” to make it clear i wasnt stating they were an atg team in the context of others included there since that wasnt a discussion relevant here but you diverted that and claimed they werent on the same level as others when that wasnt even my point. the point was that the 4th-6th best test team since the 80s depending on how you slice the teams and rate them did have a bowling all rounder, 2 of them infact and they owed their success to a large part down to that flexibility

your entire slip catching not even fielding as a whole is nearly as vital as batting or bowling premise is based on 3 great teams that you saw having strong slip cordons, its not an invalid argument by any means but others have brought up better arguments as to why you may be overrating them but you’re failing to engage with that. you cant really be surprised that your opinion is unpopular in your own thread after that and its exacerbated by you making it personal and doing random driveby insults now at whoever is in the vicinity