Dravid vs De Villiers against lateral movement

[subshakerz]

no they;re not, and it was Bumrah';s first time playing test cricket

ABD is awesome, but this whole argument is stupid because one of these two guys actually played against ATG bowling and did ok - not great, but no worse than anyone not named Tendulkar in that era. The other guy never did.

Dravid was below okay. He struggled overall against worldclass pace.

Peak Johnson and Cummins were absolutely worldclass on those pitches which ABD faced.

 

[Majestic]

no they;re not, and it was Bumrah';s first time playing test cricket

ABD is awesome, but this whole argument is stupid because one of these two guys actually played against ATG bowling and did ok - not great, but no worse than anyone not named Tendulkar in that era. The other guy never did.

You think Cummins won't become an ATG like Steyn? Johnson during that season wasn't at a different level together? By that logic, even Steyn won't be having beastly level form everytime too and often be helped by batters.

 

[HouHsiaoHsien]

ABD cause the guys mentioned here are express pacers

 

[Ray.]

It's not a vibes post. I gave the exact skills to have a chance against this attack.

I'm not putting one knock, ABD has multiple series against Cummins and peak Mitch. But his basic skill set along with that is sufficient to put confidence in him over Dravid.

I don't see the reason to include Cummins in this conversation, you're making him look like he was a world beater at that time which he is now. The lad had only played 4-5 tests against Aus. 1 was on his debut afterwards he became injury prone and had only played 14 tests all together till the time ABD retired.

 

[subshakerz]

I don't see the reason to include Cummins in this conversation, you're making him look like he was a world beater at that time which he is now. The lad had only played 4-5 tests against Aus. 1 was on his debut afterwards he became injury prone and had only played 14 tests all together till the time ABD retired.

He was bowling excellently in that series which I saw myself regardless of whether he was ATG yet.

 

[ma1978]

He was bowling excellently in that series which I saw myself regardless of whether he was ATG yet.

so in this case you rely on the eye test to prove a point, but when others do the same (Ashwin in Australia), you pedantically point to stats

 

[subshakerz]

so in this case you rely on the eye test to prove a point, but when others do the same (Ashwin in Australia), you pedantically point to stats

It's not just an eye test. Johnson had worldclass figures in those series too, not some single innings threefer you are making a big deal over.

 

[ma1978]

It's not just an eye test. Johnson had worldclass figures in those series too, not some single innings threefer you are making a big deal over.

so did Harbhajan Singh and Narendra Hirwani, it means nothing

 

[Spark]

Peak Johnson was amazing but again... the thread title...

 

[subshakerz]

Peak Johnson was amazing but again... the thread title...

How is it not relevant? Look at the pacers in the OP.

 

[subshakerz]

so did Harbhajan Singh and Narendra Hirwani, it means nothing

It does mean something if we are evaluating abilities against worldclass pace.

 

[Spark]

How is it not relevant? Look at the pacers in the OP.

No I'm really going to insist at this point: if the OP didn't want the topic to be about lateral movement then he wouldn't have put those specific words in those threads. If you want to discuss that in the context of the specific bowlers then fine but I feel this entire thing is a really dishonest attempt to drag the debate into one that you personally prefer rather than the one actually presented.

It's really not very difficult to understand what the words "lateral movement" mean, nor is it difficult to discuss even specific bowlers in that restricted context. It is not the same thing as "world class pace" and especially not the same thing as "express pace".

 

[Spark]

And yes I do think I'm going to have to take a harder line against sneaky thread derails in this subforum, I didn't realise until recently just how bad it had gotten.

 

[subshakerz]

No I'm really going to insist at this point: if the OP didn't want the topic to be about lateral movement then he wouldn't have put those specific words in those threads. If you want to discuss that in the context of the specific bowlers then fine but I feel this entire thing is a really dishonest attempt to drag the debate into one that you personally prefer rather than the one actually presented.

It's really not very difficult to understand what the words "lateral movement" mean, nor is it difficult to discuss even specific bowlers in that restricted context. It is not the same thing as "world class pace" and especially not the same thing as "express pace".

You don't think that is being a tad unreasonable? How exactly are we supposed to limit how these bats would do against lateral movement when the bowlers specified are also pace merchants? We can't separate their swing from their pace. And that is precisely the distinction that I have raised in this thread, pointing out how Dravid would do better against lateral movement in lesser paced bowlers.

 

[Spark]

You don't think that is being a tad unreasonable? How exactly are we supposed to limit how these bats would do against lateral movement when the bowlers specified are also pace merchants? We can't separate their swing from their pace. And that is precisely the distinction that I have raised in this thread, pointing out how Dravid would do better against lateral movement in lesser pacer bowlers.

Because you keep bringing up performances against bowlers not known for extracting significant lateral movement through their careers and redefining the debate to mean "against world class pace", apparently mostly you can big up ABdV against Johnson which, whilst excellent, was in no reasonable sense of the words a great batting performance against lateral movement.

 

[subshakerz]

Because you keep bringing up performances against bowlers not known for extracting significant lateral movement through their careers and redefining the debate to mean "against world class pace", apparently mostly you can big up ABdV against Johnson which, whilst excellent, was in no reasonable sense of the words a great batting performance against lateral movement.

First off, I recall Mitch swinging it pretty sharply when he toured SA in 2009 and 2014 and when ABD scored against him.

Second, the poll question is 'Who would you pick against an attack of Marshall, Steyn, Imran in seaming/swinging conditions?'

So it's in that context I am bringing up pace, because all three are known to crank it up. It seems odd to say you can only bring up pace when talking about these bowlers but if you try to bring up examples of how these respective bats did agaínst pace in their own careers, it's not relevant. It's entirely germane to this question.

The way I see it, bringing up ABD against Mitch in SA is more relevant to answering this question than bringing up Dravid against Anderson in Eng.

 

[Spark]

First off, I recall Mitch swinging it pretty sharply when he toured SA in 2009 and 2014 and when ABD scored against him.

Second, the poll question is 'Who would you pick against an attack of Marshall, Steyn, Imran in seaming/swinging conditions?'

So it's in that context I am bringing up pace, because all three are known to crank it up. It seems odd to say you can only bring up pace when talking about these bowlers but if you try to bring up examples of how these respective bats did agaínst pace in their own careers, it's not relevant. It's entirely germane to this question.

The way I see it, bringing up ABD against Mitch in SA is more relevant to answering this question than bringing up Dravid against Anderson in Eng.

You recall very wrongly. There was little conventional swing for either team in that series. Johnson only swung the ball consistently in a few innings in 2009.

The bolded is exactly my point. You have dishonestly redefined the question and excluded the bit you don't like to include an obviously not relevant series and exclude an obviously relevant series from your consideration. So yes, I will repeat what I said: stick to the topic that was actually raised, not the one you that you would have preferred been raised.

 

[subshakerz]

You recall very wrongly. There was little conventional swing for either team in that series. Johnson only swung the ball consistently in a few innings in 2009.

The bolded is exactly my point. You have dishonestly redefined the question and excluded the bit you don't like to include an obviously not relevant series and exclude an obviously relevant series from your consideration. So yes, I will repeat what I said: stick to the topic that was actually raised, not the one you that you would have preferred been raised.

No, it's not dishonesty and you don't have to go there. I am pretty clear about my perspective.

It's a genuine disagreement about whether the question 'Who would you pick against an attack of Marshall, Steyn, Imran in seaming/swinging conditions?' is about how Dravid and ABD would do against worldclass pace or against lateral movement.

But I have said my piece so I won't belabor the point.

 

[Bolo.]

And yes I do think I'm going to have to take a harder line against sneaky thread derails in this subforum, I didn't realise until recently just how bad it had gotten.

Don't be too fussed.

This subforum lives and breathes on pendantry. It's gated already. People who don't enjoy stupid pedantry can just stay away.

 

[blackdevil95]

I don't see the reason to include Cummins in this conversation, you're making him look like he was a world beater at that time which he is now. The lad had only played 4-5 tests against Aus. 1 was on his debut afterwards he became injury prone and had only played 14 tests all together till the time ABD retired.

In 2017-2018 period, Amla averaged 17 (3 outs) , Kohli averaged 14 (4 outs) , Faf averaged 10.2 (4 outs), Joe Root averaged 18 (4 outs) against Cummins. 2018 was one of the best years of Cummins by average (19.5 in 8 matches).