Do SC Pacers Deserve More Credit For Home Performances?

[Slifer]

It applies across the board. Kapil, Imran, Vaas, Wasim, Srinath, Shami, their home records are glossed over or given 'kudos' without tangibly addressing how much extra credit they should get.

I suggested that one way to look at it is to give them a 1-2 point average drop to address their discrepancy compared to SENAW bowlers and then rate them accordingly as you wish. You suggest any extra credit should just be removed as soon as we look at them away, which is just another way of saying they shouldn't get credit in the first place.

So Imran goes from 22.81 to 20.81. And accordingly we should rate him above Hadlee and McGrath? And that be the end of it?

 

[trundler]

Pretty pathetic to see the Imran detractor derail the discussion again because of his obsession.

 

[subshakerz]

So Imran goes from 22.81 to 20.81. And accordingly we should rate him above Hadlee and McGrath? And that be the end of it?

Sure if you feel that much should be cut.

 

[Slifer]

Look a the double standards here.

If I suggested that we shave off a couple points off Sanga or MoYo's averages due to home friendliness, none of these guys bat an eye.

Suggesting we do so the other way to benefit SC pacers and suddenly they feel aggrieved

I personally don't take Sangakkara's record at face value because of the era he played in not home and away stuff specifically. I'm pretty sure most of us do. But carry on with your crusade...

 

[Coronis]

Imran's overall record, even without SC points; being inferior than someone like Dennis Lillee or Fred Trueman is straight up cap.

I don’t ****ing rate him above them, I never have, I have 5 fast bowlers between Imran and those two.

Thats not true. Their records are generally compared with their like on a head to head basis, without any special.pleading for home stuff.

No its not. Donald has a better average than both Imran and Wasim. Donald has a better strike rate than both Imran and Wasim. Donald took more wickets per match than both Imran and Wasim. Donald took 5’fers more often than both Imran and Wasim.

Yet Donald is rated by almost everyone as below those two - one of the big reasons for that is due to their respective home conditions.

 

[subshakerz]

I personally don't take Sangakkara's record at face value because of the era he played in not home and away stuff specifically. I'm pretty sure most of us do. But carry on with your crusade...

Yeah him averaging 60 at home with 60 percent of his tests there wouldn't come up in an argument.

 

[Slifer]

Sure if you feel that much should be cut.

No i said nothing, you said "1-2 points"..... So Imran goes to 20.81, Wasim to 21.62, Waqar 21.56, Shoaib 23.7 etc. ?? And that be the end of it....

 

[subshakerz]

Yet Donald is rated by almost everyone as below those two - one of the big reasons for that is due to their respective home conditions.

No, it's not. Look at past arguments. The difference is records against WI and Aus. Donald is given a clean sheet as far as SC records go and that is as far as SC is considered relevant in that comparison.

 

[capt_Luffy]

I don’t ****ing rate him above them, I never have, I have 5 fast bowlers between Imran and those two.



No its not. Donald has a better average than both Imran and Wasim. Donald has a better strike rate than both Imran and Wasim. Donald took more wickets per match than both Imran and Wasim. Donald took 5’fers more often than both Imran and Wasim.

Yet Donald is rated by almost everyone as below those two - one of the big reasons for that is due to their respective home conditions.

Donald also gets somewhat downgraded for having a mediocre record against Australia.

 

[Slifer]

I don’t ****ing rate him above them, I never have, I have 5 fast bowlers between Imran and those two.



No its not. Donald has a better average than both Imran and Wasim. Donald has a better strike rate than both Imran and Wasim. Donald took more wickets per match than both Imran and Wasim. Donald took 5’fers more often than both Imran and Wasim.

Yet Donald is rated by almost everyone as below those two - one of the big reasons for that is due to their respective home conditions.

And I've constantly seen Akram make people's All time Xi routinely ahead of McGrath, Marshall and Hadlee but apparently that's not enough....

https://m.youtube.com/results?sp=mAEA&search_query=Test+xi

 

[Coronis]

No, it's not. Look at past arguments. The difference is records against WI and Aus. Donald is given a clean sheet as far as SC records go and that is as far as SC is considered relevant in that comparison.

Holy **** shockingly there are multiple reasons, I said one of the reasons. Learn to ****ing read.

And yes I have actually seen a post talking about him in comparison to one of those two saying “Donald had easier home conditions and a worse record in Australia”

How on earth is that not giving Imran/Wasim credit for their home records?

 

[kyear2]

The bias against SC fast bowlers has always been around here. PFK had it right when he rated Akram as the greatest fast bowler of all time, there are no good arguments against him being one but he isn't even considered for the top tier.

Wasim is a very different case and one that I struggle to rank.
1. He played a really long time
2. He had horrible catching support

I watched him against us and he was incredibly skilled, but his perceived down grading has literally nothing to do with his home pitches where he performed better than away. He averaged 22 at home that's top 6 to 8 worthy, but he averaged almost 29 in England, 28 in England and 27 in the Caribbean. It has nothing to do with the home pitches.

I would argue than Wasim's average had more to do with his slip cordon than home conditions, and that's obvious because his home numbers were better than his away ones.

How is this not glaringly obvious.

 

[subshakerz]

No i said nothing, you said "1-2 points"..... So Imran goes to 20.81, Wasim to 21.62, Waqar 21.56, Shoaib 23.7 etc. ?? And that be the end of it....

Well the idea is we could debate it. So I don't mind Imran having 21ish either. Obviously not an exact science but it's an ad hoc measurement.

 

[subshakerz]

Holy **** shockingly there are multiple reasons, I said one of the reasons. Learn to ****ing read.

And yes I have actually seen a post talking about him in comparison to one of those two saying “Donald had easier home conditions and a worse record in Australia”

How on earth is that not giving Imran/Wasim credit for their home records?

Fair enough. To clarify, I am not saying that the home pitches argument never ever comes up. It obviously does rarely, but as a quick throwaway without really much weight given to what that really means and how much credit should be given.

 

[kyear2]

Pretty pathetic to see the Imran detractor derail the discussion again because of his obsession.

It's clear to see the agenda of this topic, and he achieved what he wanted. Chaos.

How can I be an Imran detractor and I rate him as highly as anyone else.

Marshall
McGrath
Hadlee
Steyn
Ambrose
Imran

Tell me where I objectively have him unfairly rated, and that's my point.

What was the point of this, none of these guys stats are brought down by their stats at home, that's never been the case.

I know. I'm an easy target but this thread is pointless. Vaas, Shami, Wasim, home records aren't better than the away ones?

Kapil averaged 26 at home, lowering that to 24 lowers the ones that really lowered his ratings?

How is this bias?

 

[Slifer]

No, it's not. Look at past arguments. The difference is records against WI and Aus. Donald is given a clean sheet as far as SC records go and that is as far as SC is considered relevant in that comparison.

Subz your argument against Donald was some crap about "impactful series" ie he supposedly didn't take bucket loads of wickets to influence series.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Subz your argument against Donald was some crap about "impactful series" ie he supposedly didn't take bucket loads of wickets to influence series.

I love it when he pull arguments like 'dominated series', 'taken 5-fers' and 'won a match ' etc and ignores most other arguments thrown at him....

 

[subshakerz]

Subz your argument against Donald was some crap about "impactful series" ie he supposedly didn't take bucket loads of wickets to influence series.

I was the only one making that argument therefore unrepresentative

 

[kyear2]

Subz your argument against Donald was some crap about "impactful series" ie he supposedly didn't take bucket loads of wickets to influence series.

Yup

The irony though is that in the spinners thread he strongly implies that over seas records should matter, not so much here.

I will submit that bowling in India has always been recognized as tough, a lot of guys have succeeded there though, even Holding and he's not in this conversation.

But to say that it's been the hindrance for these guys with regards to overall regard, it doesn't jive with the figures.

Class breaks through, but the main way we rate this guy's is consistency and overall record, this isn't new and one of the things that Subz pushes.

All these guys are rated as highly as they are because of their home records and how they succeeded at home. That's always been the case, it sure as hell wasn't based on how they did overseas.

 

[subshakerz]

It's clear to see the agenda of this topic, and he achieved what he wanted. Chaos.

How can I be an Imran detractor and I rate him as highly as anyone else.

Marshall
McGrath
Hadlee
Steyn
Ambrose
Imran

Tell me where I objectively have him unfairly rated, and that's my point.

You are giving the 'but my gardener is Mexican' excuse here when it comes to Imran.

What was the point of this, none of these guys stats are brought down by their stats at home, that's never been the case.

Not downgrade. We are talking upgrade.

I know. I'm an easy target but this thread is pointless. Vaas, Shami, Wasim, home records aren't better than the away ones?

Kapil averaged 26 at home, lowering that to 24 lowers the ones that really lowered his ratings?

How is this bias?

It's not a pointless thread, it has been clarifying.

At every turn, your side has shown a propensity to do what you with sanctimony condemned in the other thread: knock SC pacers to make SENAW look better i.e. keep.your rankings intact.