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Do SC Pacers Deserve More Credit For Home Performances?

subshakerz

Hall of Fame Member
I don't doubt conditions between new and reverse were tough. They were also shorter than anywhere else, and the ball reversed more. For guys whose primary weapon was reverse, this is a big advantage.

Steyn follows the same trend as everyone else, aside from these 3.
You act like they were reversing it after 10 overs. It was 60 plus overs before they could tap into it.

It's not like Imran and Wasim were one note reverse swingers either, they were terrific with the new ball as well. And there is zero doubt that it's much easier with the new ball in anywhere other than Pakistan.

I don't see the point of downplaying that one set of conditions is simply more difficult for pacers.
 

kyear2

International Coach
The same recycled argument. Away this, away that, anything to not give SC pacers extra home credit. We don't see these excuses when it comes to Kallis at home, everyone takes it at face value.

It's quite simple, are you willing to treat a SC pacers' home career as an independent achievement or not? Do you give them credit to adapting to difficult conditions or not?
No, because I don't believe it was more difficult, I believe it provided different challenges.

Does anyone say that Bumrah deserves extra credit or do they say he's a great bowler. That's because he's really good, and has performed everywhere he's played. He just has to demonstrate that he can maintain it.

Marshall had no dip of performance in Pakistan nor India. The two bowlers referenced had better performances at home that abroad, speaking to home not being more difficult, just different. It posed different problems but offered different solutions.

Lower bounce helps with more LBWs, which was the highest percentage of wickets taken at home by both. It assisted with reverse swing, which was further accentuated by the bowlers, again adding to the lbw threat. So subtracting points?, no. If they had possibly failed at home because of legitimate adverse conditions then sure, but we're subtracting points from the only place he averaged 19? All that does is further highlight the stark difference between his home and away performances.

Your counter argument again makes even less sense. So now we're adding to the averages of Indian spinners because it's easier home conditions? But that's what away tests are for, to add context and to correct imbalances. Plus were not blind, again, the context is allied and comparisons made.

That's the part you're missing, everyone factors in context. Everything is already baked in, but let's give an example.
South Africa is hard to bat in, we know this because that's where where Steyn performed much better and he wasn't as great away. We know this because that's where Smith relatively struggled, while performing better away. But even here we don't add or subtract points we view it in a wider context.

To take it further, you say we should subtract points from Imran's home average because of he had the opportunity to play elsewhere he would have flourished because of adverse conditions, but there's no proof of this because he did play in this conditions and he didn't flourish.

There's anecdotal evidence that Smith would have averaged more if he played for Australia or England and had those as home decks, because he performed better there. Show the similar evidence for Wasim or Imran.

Even ignoring the the insidious, isn't it possible that Imran's (and Wasim's) bowling style was helped by the lower bouncing, reverse swinging conditions that existed in Pakistan and didn't translate well to conditions with less natural abrasion and more bounce? He was an inswing bowler, most of the other greats, outswing. I'll say for Wasim his catching support, linger career etc were greater impedances to his numbers than his home pitches.

So again to answer, no. More emphatically, Hell No. It's all factored in and one ones subtracting anything. This is why context matters and your performances home and away matters. Neither exists in a vacuum.
 

kyear2

International Coach
This. Is. Already. Done.



This is not.
But ORS, how is this true and Imran still be ranked at lowest, the 6th best pacer ever and 8th best bowler over all.

This only exists in Subz's mind. How much higher do we think he should be? Over Steyn? Marshall, McGrath, Hadlee? They all have more well rounded records. He isn't being punished because of what he did at home, and he wouldn't be pushed any higher if her averaged 18 at home and still averaged what he did elsewhere.
 

kyear2

International Coach
This is one of those rare threads when subs is actually right
Yes, this is one of those time I mentioned in the other thread about Indian spinners, where I mentioned that you guys support him, then immediately tien around when he uses the same arguments against Indian spinners.

All this despite the fact that he openly said he had no issues with adding to their averages as well. Which makes no sense.
 

PlayerComparisons

International Vice-Captain
Yes, this is one of those time I mentioned in the other thread about Indian spinners, where I mentioned that you guys support him, then immediately tien around when he uses the same arguments against Indian spinners.

All this despite the fact that he openly said he had no issues with adding to their averages as well. Which makes no sense.
I don’t have a problem with adding to the spinners averages lol
 

kyear2

International Coach
First it was Wasim, now Imran. All goalpost moving. Stop assuming my intentions and just address the argument. I am beginning to think you have some deep seated resistance against having to rethink how you assess SC pacers.


Ok then do that first. We already judge their away record by its merits and you know that.
This is the most infuriating thing that you do.

Everything you do is agenda driven, but then you ask that the agenda be ignored.

The only one shifting goal posts is you, because nowhere else has anyone ever asked to have anyone's record shaved or added to.

You're literally the only one.

Imran is seen as the 6th best fast bowler ever but somehow you've whipped up everyone in a fevered pitch that he's under rated and disrespected.

You introduce metrics and grievances not used for literally any another cricketer to make it seem like Imran is a victim of bias. And why?

Because we don't shave points off of his average at home that currently sits at 19???

The **** dude.

@honestbharani did say though that everything you do, the Kallis slander, the Ambrose slander all leads to Imran. And that may just be one of the two motives that you push on this forum.
 

kyear2

International Coach
He couldn't adapt over 13 tests, but he'd do so playing more. That's all good and well , so long as we also then agree that great bowlers like Ambrose could probably adapt and do as well in Pakistan as Imran did.....

Subz: " well no because Ambrose sucked on flat wickets. "

Me: Subz, Ambrose averaged under 20 in the two flattest wickets in the Caribbean. Arguably the two flattest in the world.

Subz: well that's irrelevant to the thread, you're moving goal posts, Imran....

Me: 🤔🤔🤔
This......
 

subshakerz

Hall of Fame Member
No, because I don't believe it was more difficult, I believe it provided different challenges.

Does anyone say that Bumrah deserves extra credit or do they say he's a great bowler. That's because he's really good, and has performed everywhere he's played. He just has to demonstrate that he can maintain it.

Marshall had no dip of performance in Pakistan nor India. The two bowlers referenced had better performances at home that abroad, speaking to home not being more difficult, just different. It posed different problems but offered different solutions.
Bumrah hasn't played much in India at all. When he does more, success in India becomes a point in his favor. Marshalls record in SC inevitably is what is pointed to as giving him that extra aura, not as much in England and Australia.

Lower bounce helps with more LBWs, which was the highest percentage of wickets taken at home by both. It assisted with reverse swing, which was further accentuated by the bowlers, again adding to the lbw threat. So subtracting points?, no. If they had possibly failed at home because of legitimate adverse conditions then sure, but we're subtracting points from the only place he averaged 19? All that does is further highlight the stark difference between his home and away performances.
All of this is the result of the ingenuity and skill of Pak pacers to adapt to what majority of pacers would find difficult. Yet want to pretend it's the same for them as if they were bowling at Perth or Headingley where pacers have a much more straightforward setup.

Here you really reveal yourself btw. So them failing is fine to give them grace points, but them succeeding deserves no special recognition? Absurd double standards.This shows you already put them in a box and don't want to even indulge rating them higher.

Your counter argument again makes even less sense. So now we're adding to the averages of Indian spinners because it's easier home conditions? But that's what away tests are for, to add context and to correct imbalances. Plus were not blind, again, the context is allied and comparisons made.
I have always said Indian home spinner averages, particularly last decade, are misleading.

That's the part you're missing, everyone factors in context. Everything is already baked in, but let's give an example.
South Africa is hard to bat in, we know this because that's where where Steyn performed much better and he wasn't as great away. We know this because that's where Smith relatively struggled, while performing better away. But even here we don't add or subtract points we view it in a wider context.
Steyns special advantage of his home wickets almost never comes up. It's the opposite 'he succeeded in a flat era'.

To take it further, you say we should subtract points from Imran's home average because of he had the opportunity to play elsewhere he would have flourished because of adverse conditions, but there's no proof of this because he did play in this conditions and he didn't flourish.
No, we don't say this. We say he should get extra credit for achieving that home average as it was bloody difficult to do so in those conditions and is a monumental achievement.

There's anecdotal evidence that Smith would have averaged more if he played for Australia or England and had those as home decks, because he performed better there. Show the similar evidence for Wasim or Imran.
Again with irrelevant away references. His home achievements deserve recognition independently, the same for his record in WI being independently recognized without bringing Aus or Eng.

Even ignoring the the insidious, isn't it possible that Imran's (and Wasim's) bowling style was helped by the lower bouncing, reverse swinging conditions that existed in Pakistan and didn't translate well to conditions with less natural abrasion and more bounce? He was an inswing bowler, most of the other greats, outswing. I'll say for Wasim his catching support, linger career etc were greater impedances to his numbers than his home pitches.
You think they developed their bowling styles in a vacuum or perhaps as part of a crafted way to counter dead pitches? Again, you don't care because you already decided they deserve no special credit.

So again to answer, no. More emphatically, Hell No. It's all factored in and one ones subtracting anything. This is why context matters and your performances home and away matters. Neither exists in a vacuum.
This meltdown doesn't reflect well on you. You seem bitter and petty because you've been caught in a logical chokehold and are unwilling to concede the obvious because of a vendetta. You didn't even bother to bring up the other SC pacers. Perhaps reflect and change.
 
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subshakerz

Hall of Fame Member
This is the most infuriating thing that you do.

Everything you do is agenda driven, but then you ask that the agenda be ignored.

The only one shifting goal posts is you, because nowhere else has anyone ever asked to have anyone's record shaved or added to.

You're literally the only one.

Imran is seen as the 6th best fast bowler ever but somehow you've whipped up everyone in a fevered pitch that he's under rated and disrespected.

You introduce metrics and grievances not used for literally any another cricketer to make it seem like Imran is a victim of bias. And why?

Because we don't shave points off of his average at home that currently sits at 19???

The **** dude.

@honestbharani did say though that everything you do, the Kallis slander, the Ambrose slander all leads to Imran. And that may just be one of the two motives that you push on this forum.
Lol what the heck is this post? You seem to copying HB's whinging and taking it to another level after scolding him about it. Like dude, seriously, it's not just about Imran. I told you I literally got the idea for the thread from the Kapil vs Botham comparison.

And I stand by my suggestion to consider average adjustment for SC pacers with large parts of their careers in inhospitable conditions. It is fair and levels the playing field of soft biases this thread has demonstrated still proliferate across CW in regards to SENAW.
 
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Slifer

International Captain
But ORS, how is this true and Imran still be ranked at lowest, the 6th best pacer ever and 8th best bowler over all.

This only exists in Subz's mind. How much higher do we think he should be? Over Steyn? Marshall, McGrath, Hadlee? They all have more well rounded records. He isn't being punished because of what he did at home, and he wouldn't be pushed any higher if her averaged 18 at home and still averaged what he did elsewhere.
And him and Subz are downright lying. Rabada has an excellent record at face value but it's heavily skewed to his home performances. We therefore downgrade Rabada for doing well at home but sucking (relatively) away, especially in Asia. We did the same to Philander before. We give Imran kudos for being great on unhelpful Pakistan wickets but take points away (relative) to other bowlers for not being as stellar.

Subz acknowledges Imran is inferior to Marshall, Hadlee and McGrath but as always he's on his obsessive crusade to diminish Ambrose and probably Steyn and raise Imran. Which is odd. Why? Because let's say we all agree Imran is on the same S tier as a Marshall, he's only outstanding in Pakistan, so what, he makes the atg XI (as a bowler) to play only in Pakistan? No. Because he comes up short across most countries relative to the other greats. Subz said he'd pick him because of his reverse prowess on flat wickets. False, he performed greatly on flat wickets in Pakistan. What about in India?
 

kyear2

International Coach
The records of ATGs quicks are extremely predictable in a way that regular bowlers are not. If you are from a country that is great for pace (RSA and England) your record is better at home. If you come from a country that is decent (Aus, NZ, WI), your record is similar. Pak bucks this trend wildly if it was tough for them. Why?
Yeah. I guess the argument is that they were way more skilled, so if that's the case, why fall away so hard away from home.

Why thrive there and fail in India.
 

subshakerz

Hall of Fame Member
And him and Subz are downright lying. Rabada has an excellent record at face value but it's heavily skewed to his home performances. We therefore downgrade Rabada for doing well at home but sucking (relatively) away, especially in Asia. We did the same to Philander before. We give Imran kudos for being great on unhelpful Pakistan wickets but take points away (relative) to other bowlers for not being as stellar.
Kudos. How cute. He get kudos at home and points taken away.

You admit you can demerit Rabada for his home record but can't upgrade SC pacers for theirs. Apparently it only works one way. The buck stops with actually admitting SC pacers can be better than they seemed.

Subz acknowledges Imran is inferior to Marshall, Hadlee and McGrath but as always he's on his obsessive crusade to diminish Ambrose and probably Steyn and raise Imran. Which is odd. Why? Because let's say we all agree Imran is on the same S tier as a Marshall, he's only outstanding in Pakistan, so what, he makes the atg XI (as a bowler) to play only in Pakistan? No. Because he comes up short across most countries relative to the other greats. Subz said he'd pick him because of his reverse prowess on flat wickets. False, he performed greatly on flat wickets in Pakistan. What about in India?
How many times do you want me to make the same argument. I am talking about home performances for SC cricketers because it makes up a big portion of their careers.

And it is clear by now, the obsession is yours, not mine. I literally spent half the thread talking about Kapil. You don't seem to be able to get off Imran.
 
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subshakerz

Hall of Fame Member
Yeah. I guess the argument is that they were way more skilled, so if that's the case, why fall away so hard away from home.

Why thrive there and fail in India.
Not the argument. The argument is that their home record, by itself as half of their career, deserves to be given special credit on its own merits as it is better than the same record on easier pitches in SENAW.
 

kyear2

International Coach
Lol what the heck is this post? You seem to copying HB's whinging and taking it to another level after scolding him about it. Like dude, seriously, it's not just about Imran. I told you I literally got the idea for the thread from the Kapil vs Botham comparison.

And I stand by my suggestion to consider average adjustment for SC pacers with large parts of their careers in inhospitable conditions. It is fair and levels the playing field of soft biases this thread has demonstrated still proliferate across CW in regards to SENAW.
The reason I was defending you vs others last time was because it was getting volatile and causing divides.

You're doing the same thing now, us vs them. And I find it just as distasteful now as then. No one gets extra points for anything. Imran is recognized as an unquestioned ATG, a top 6 fast bowler and top 8 bowler of all time.

So to you

1. Where's the bias?
2. How much higher should he go?
3. Do you think the reason he's "only" 6th is to do with his home or his away record and would artificially and arbitrarily lowering his home record fix that?

Your one objective on this thread is to elevate Imran Khan and you don't care what it takes to do it, now you've elevated it to us vs them.
 

Slifer

International Captain
Kudos. How cute. He get kudos at home and points taken away.

You admit you can demerit Rabada for his home record but can't upgrade SC pacers for theirs. Apparently it only works one way. The buck stops with actually admitting SC pacers can be better than they seemed.


How many times do you want me to make the same argument. I am talking about home performances for SC cricketers because it makes up a big portion of their careers.

And it is clear by now, the obsession is yours, not mine. I literally spent half the thread talking about Kapil. You don't seem to be able to get off Imran.
You spoke about Kapil to get sympathy from the Indians. Admit it, this is all about Imran....😝😝😝😝
 

kyear2

International Coach
How does a top 6 fast bowler get there of we don't give him credit for what he did at home, but only receive downgrades for what he did abroad.

He's universally seen as being better than Lillee, Donald, Garner, Holding, Trueman, Lindwall.

How is this not creating grievances.
 

kyear2

International Coach
Not the argument. The argument is that their home record, by itself as half of their career, deserves to be given special credit on its own merits as it is better than the same record on easier pitches in SENAW.
So you genuinely don't think that a man who is rated so damn highly isn't given credit for his home exploits.

The dude makes every ATG 1st or 2nd team, what are you getting at.

Please show me where he isn't given credit for his home record.
 

Coronis

International Coach
ffs they are their home record is literally brought up all the ****ing time is the reason they’re so good. For some reason you think we should also ignore that they were poorer outside the SC and thus rate them higher overall
 

subshakerz

Hall of Fame Member
The reason I was defending you vs others last time was because it was getting volatile and causing divides.

You're doing the same thing now, us vs them. And I find it just as distasteful now as then. No one gets extra points for anything. Imran is recognized as an unquestioned ATG, a top 6 fast bowler and top 8 bowler of all time.

So to you

1. Where's the bias?
2. How much higher should he go?
3. Do you think the reason he's "only" 6th is to do with his home or his away record and would artificially and arbitrarily lowering his home record fix that?

Your one objective on this thread is to elevate Imran Khan and you don't care what it takes to do it, now you've elevated it to us vs them.
1. Bias against giving SC bowlers full due.
2. Not about Imran.
3. Not about Imran.
 

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