Do SC Pacers Deserve More Credit For Home Performances?

[subshakerz]

I will submit that bowling in India has always been recognized as tough, a lot of guys have succeeded there though, even Holding and he's not in this conversation.

But to say that it's been the hindrance for these guys with regards to overall regard, it doesn't jive with the figures.

Class breaks through, but the main way we rate this guy's is consistency and overall record, this isn't new and one of the things that Subz pushes.

Your cognitive dissonance is breaking through.

It either is tougher to bowl there or it's not. Just keep one stance but you can't have it both ways, its harder but somehow succeeding there doesn't matter more.

 

[Slifer]

Well the idea is we could debate it. So I don't mind Imran having 21ish either. Obviously not an exact science but it's an ad hoc measurement.

I'm curious to know your thoughts on the logical deduction you hinted at:

Do SC batsmen deserve to less credit for home performances? Maybe lower Dravid and Sachin averages overall by 4-5 points since they had it so easy at home??

 

[capt_Luffy]

I'm curious to know your thoughts on the logical deduction you hinted at:

Do SC batsmen deserve to less credit for home performances? Maybe lower Dravid and Sachin averages overall by 4-5 points since they had it so easy at home??

SC is inherently tougher for pacers, but easier for spinners. There are reasons why SC spinners gets marked negatively, much more than SENA pacers; in such comparisons. If you want to mark people for 2000s flat pitches, like Dravid, be my guest! But do so to the likes of Ponting as well....

 

[Prince EWS]

I find it's actually the opposite

@TheJediBrah

 

[subshakerz]

I'm curious to know your thoughts on the logical deduction you hinted at:

Do SC batsmen deserve to less credit for home performances? Maybe lower Dravid and Sachin averages overall by 4-5 points since they had it so easy at home??

Let's not go down that rabbit hole but suffice to say we already all have general agreement in CW that friendly home pitches should be factored into our analysis of a batsman.

 

[kyear2]

You are giving the 'but my gardener is Mexican' excuse here when it comes to Imran.


Not downgrade. We are talking upgrade.



It's not a pointless thread, it has been clarifying.

At every turn, your side has shown a propensity to do what you with sanctimony condemned in the other thread: knock SC pacers to make SENAW look better i.e. keep.your rankings intact.

Wow, the same argument HB used against you, while I used it as your defence. Cute. I rank everyone the same, overall record, who they did it against and home vs away record. You want to add in new provisions bit only for some.
But call me racist again.

No one's record is ever upgraded, this is literally a first and has no bearing in reality. And the weird part is that you want to upgrade the good part of their records. This is honestly pathetic and idiotic.

Who am I knocking down, and who am I trying to make look better. I haven't tried to knock down anyone, I've pointed out to you that Imran is ranked high as hell, literally one place below where you do, and that's you and your Ambrose thing.
I personally find it hard to rate Wasim because I know he had legitimate factors that impacted his numbers, but there are holes that legitimately takes him out of the very highest tier, it isn't became he's from Pakistan. You also don't rate Wasim that highly and behind Imran.

I literally don't have a single bowler rated higher than Imran and possibly Wasim than you, besides possibly Ambrose over the former. Vaas, Shami, and all the other don't ever factor into these discussions as don't many lower tier bowlers. This was a made up gripe that spawned another chaotic thread where people are going at each other at your instigation.

 

[Slifer]

SC is inherently tougher for pacers, but easier for spinners. There are reasons why SC spinners gets marked negatively, much more than SENA pacers; in such comparisons. If you want to mark people for 2000s flat pitches, like Dravid, be my guest! But do so to the likes of Ponting as well....

The OP mentions pace and that's what I'll talk about. And therefore we'll talk about how maybe Asian batsmen had it easier at home vs foreign pace, therefore they should get less credit for home records. We won't use a 2000 cut off either because players from the 90s and 80s were mentioned.

 

[capt_Luffy]

The OP mentions pace and that's what I'll talk about. And therefore we'll talk about how maybe Asian batsmen had it easier at home vs foreign pace, therefore they should get less credit for home records. We won't use a 2000 cut off either because players from the 90s and 80s were mentioned.

What are you even talking about?? Asian batsmen can't just declare they won't play spin; which is much more potent in Asia, does balancing pace being relatively easier than SENA.....

 

[subshakerz]

Wow, the same argument HB used against you, while I used it as your defence. Cute. I rank everyone the same, overall record, who they did it against and home vs away record. You want to add in new provisions bit only for some.
But call me racist again.

Nobody's calling you racist. You're probably the most non-bigoted poster here and yes I am serious.

No one's record is ever upgraded, this is literally a first and has no bearing in reality. And the weird part is that you want to upgrade the good part of their records. This is honestly pathetic and idiotic.

Stop your tantrum and realise that upgrading is literally the opposite of downgrading which we all do.

Who am I knocking down, and who am I trying to make look better. I haven't tried to knock down anyone, I've pointed out to you that Imran is ranked high as hell, literally one place below where you do, and that's you and your Ambrose thing.

Degrading reverse swing as an art as simply as straightforward as a simple new ball spells under the cloud.

I literally don't have a single bowler rated higher than Imran and possibly Wasim than you, besides possibly Ambrose over the former. Vaas, Shami, and all the other don't ever factor into these discussions as don't many lower tier bowlers. This was a made up gripe that spawned another chaotic thread where people are going at each other at your instigation.

You didn't let us chat about those other bowlers. You made it about Imran because you seem obsessed or something.

 

[Slifer]

Let's not go down that rabbit hole but suffice to say we already all have general agreement in CW that friendly home pitches should be factored into our analysis of a batsman.

Cool so then I'm upgrading Lara a few notches seeing that he was so outstanding at home on those spicy WI wickets because "I don't see how their away performance makes any difference. If conditions are tougher at home, then them adapting or suffering for it is independent of that fact and they deserve extra credit regardless."

 

[subshakerz]

What are you even talking about?? Asian batsmen can't just declare they won't play spin; which is much more potent in Asia, does balancing pace being relatively easier than SENA.....

So according to him, a spinning mamba for Ashwin and Jadeja would still be classified as batting friendly if it doesn't support pace.

 

[subshakerz]

Cool so then I'm upgrading Lara a few notches seeing that he was so outstanding at home on those spicy WI wickets because "I don't see how their away performance makes any difference. If conditions are tougher at home, then them adapting or suffering for it is independent of that fact and they deserve extra credit regardless."

I thought your argument was that WI pitches aren't pace friendly.

 

[Slifer]

I thought your argument was that WI pitches aren't pace friendly.

Subz's you and I know I never said that. I said two are, two are flat and one is uneven bounce. But even with all that, you dismissed my comments and said stuff like Pakistan (Asian) wickets were still less pace friendly, you'd rather bowl in Faislabad than the ARG. So I gave up and agreed. We even agreed that we should look at Imran as a 20.81 bowler. So now the final decision is to agree that Lara gets a significant boost since he played on spicier WI wickets and was amazing. The quote I used came directly from you.

 

[kyear2]

Your cognitive dissonance is breaking through.

It either is tougher to bowl there or it's not. Just keep one stance but you can't have it both ways, its harder but somehow succeeding there doesn't matter more.

Hold on, refusing to back down and always insisting you're right is your thing. I've always found it amazing that to acknowledge something that's true comes across as dissonance or weakness.


Bowling in India has always been a bit tougher for fast bowlers, show me where I've said it isn't. With that being said, the top tier guys have always figured it out. Marshall, Steyn, Hadlee, others. And if you fail there it's still a hole in your record, because the reason players are rated by their performances everywhere is showing the ability to adapt to certain conditions. Home and away.

But let's look at it this way. If Kapil averaged 26 in India and 24 in Australia, 21 in England, 23 in the Caribbean, would his record in India stop him from being rated more highly?
Hell, it would be his home conditions were the anomaly, so let's put that into context and go with what he did everywhere else. But that's not the case, look at what Bumrah is doing, it's not impossible, sample sizes are tiny, but quality breaks through.

No one is against Asian bowlers and that's what you've been consistently pushing this entire thread. Quiet biases and all that nonsense. Two of 5 pitches in the Caribbean favored fast bowling, yes SA and England are invariably better, but no one is rated outlet by home performances and you know this. That the point, you know all of this.

 

[subshakerz]

Subz's you and I know I never said that. I said two are, two are flat and one is uneven bounce. But even with all that, you dismissed my comments and said stuff like Pakistan (Asian) wickets were still less pace friendly, you'd rather bowl in Faislabad than the ARG. So I gave up and agreed. We even agreed that we should look at Imran as a 20.81 bowler. So now the final decision is to agree that Lara gets a significant boost since he played on spicier WI wickets and was amazing. The quote I used came directly from you.

So according to you Lara played on a mixed group of pitches but should get extra points for that?

 

[subshakerz]

Bowling in India has always been a bit tougher for fast bowlers, show me where I've said it isn't. With that being said, the top tier guys have always figured it out. Marshall, Steyn, Hadlee, others. And if you fail there it's still a hole in your record, because the reason players are rated by their performances everywhere is showing the ability to adapt to certain conditions. Home and away.

If something is tougher, succeeding at it over a much longer time should logically get more credit, no? A foreign bowler having a good series there doesn't equate to an entire home career worth of effort on such pitches.

But let's look at it this way. If Kapil averaged 26 in India and 24 in Australia, 21 in England, 23 in the Caribbean, would his record in India stop him from being rated more highly?
Hell, it would be his home conditions were the anomaly, so let's put that into context and go with what he did everywhere else. But that's not the case, look at what Bumrah is doing, it's not impossible, sample sizes are tiny, but quality breaks through..

What you would call an anomaly, our side would consider a separate achievement that can be evaluated as a strength along side weaknesses in an away record. No need for one to be made worse by comparing to another.

The problem in your approach is linking away performances, often such a smattering of tests, to downplay half of a players career slogging it out and getting results at home.

For a pacer to average 26 in India over a long stretch is a damn good achievement. Just bringing Kapil's England average to sidestep it is disrespectful to that cricketer.

 

[Slifer]

So according to you Lara played on a mixed group of pitches but should get extra points for that?

Mixed group but according to you (not me) wickets that were generally more pace friendly so yes. We can ignore the away stuff because: "I don't see how his away performance makes any difference. If conditions are tougher at home, then him adapting or suffering for it is independent of that fact and he deserve extra credit regardless."

 

[srbhkshk]

Wasim is a very different case and one that I struggle to rank.
1. He played a really long time
2. He had horrible catching support

I watched him against us and he was incredibly skilled, but his perceived down grading has literally nothing to do with his home pitches where he performed better than away. He averaged 22 at home that's top 6 to 8 worthy, but he averaged almost 29 in England, 28 in England and 27 in the Caribbean. It has nothing to do with the home pitches.

I would argue than Wasim's average had more to do with his slip cordon than home conditions, and that's obvious because his home numbers were better than his away ones.

How is this not glaringly obvious.

No it's not glaringly obvious as to why he couldn't average 15 at home if the pitches suited pace.

 

[subshakerz]

Mixed group but according to you (not me) wickets that were generally more pace friendly so yes. We can ignore the away stuff because: "I don't see how his away performance makes any difference. If conditions are tougher at home, then him adapting or suffering for it is independent of that fact and he deserve extra credit regardless."

More pace friendly than Pakistan. But overall quite normal standards.

 

[Slifer]

More pace friendly than Pakistan. But overall quite normal standards.

Still more pace friendly than wickets (your argument) in Asia. So we agree that since Asian pacers get extra points for doing well under relatively more trying conditions, we'll give Lara a boost for doing the same. No??