Do SC Pacers Deserve More Credit For Home Performances?

[Slifer]

If your overall argument is that WI pitches = Pak pitches in the 90s, we are just going to have to disagree.
No I'm saying great bowlers adapt regardless of conditions. And the pitches are just one part of the equation, you also have to look at batting strength etc

Going back to Pakistan vs WI in the 70s and 80s, in two tours to the WI (1977and 1988) both Pakistan and WI made many more runs in the supposedly more pace friendly Caribbean than in Pakistan. Care to explain...

Pitches have improved since the mid 2010s IMO.

 

[Line and Length]

Any average adjustments are based on hypotheticals. If we cut SC seamers' averages because of conditions, we should increase SC spinners' averages for similar reasons.
I've struggled through this thread and am amazed at the volume of posts. Some really good posts I might add but so many.

 

[subshakerz]

Pitches were good for reverse. The Pak pacers who succeeded bowled reverse. Like every other country, if you are quality and bowling in conditions that suit, you kinda are destined to succeed.

It's not like it reverses from the get go, you have to wait mid innings. And it takes exceptional skill to do it at high pace. And let's leave aside the fact that they were literally pioneering a new skill. Again, your whole narrative is to just downplay how much preferable being a pacer in other countries outside SC is.

Away records are a way to judge quality of a player that we can use as a way of putting home records in perspective. If someone says Ntini's success at home had nothing to do with home pitches, are you not gonna point out how bad he was away as a response?

We already judge away records on their own merits. You are the one using them to downgrade home performances.

Ntini on greentops is a bogus example.

 

[Line and Length]

Any average adjustments are based on hypotheticals. If we cut SC seamers' averages because of conditions, we should increase SC spinners' averages for similar reasons.
I've struggled through this thread and am amazed at the volume of posts. Some really good posts I might add but so many.

Two more posts as I typed the above.

 

[Slifer]

If your overall argument is that WI pitches = Pak pitches in the 90s, we are just going to have to disagree.


Pitches have improved since the mid 2010s IMO.

Going back to Pakistan vs WI in the 70s and 80s, in two tours to the WI (1977and 1988) both Pakistan and WI made many more runs in the supposedly more pace friendly Caribbean than in Pakistan. Care to explain...

And no, WI 90s pitches weren't equal to Pakistans where did I say that? Generally,two were spicier, one was uneven and the other two were the flattest wickets on earth.

 

[Sunil1z]

Any average adjustments are based on hypotheticals. If we cut SC seamers' averages because of conditions, we should increase SC spinners' averages for similar reasons.
I've struggled through this thread and am amazed at the volume of posts. Some really good posts I might add but so many.

Actually your both points are correct
Kapil is a 27 avg bowler and Lyon is a 28 avg bowler.

 

[subshakerz]

Any average adjustments are based on hypotheticals. If we cut SC seamers' averages because of conditions, we should increase SC spinners' averages for similar reasons.

I don't mind this at all

 

[subshakerz]

Going back to Pakistan vs WI in the 70s and 80s, in two tours to the WI (1977and 1988) both Pakistan and WI made many more runs in the supposedly more pace friendly Caribbean than in Pakistan. Care to explain...

Yes cherrypicking.

 

[Daemon]

we should increase SC spinners' averages for similar reasons.

correct, and we do already do this. Nobody thinks Jadeja’s standardised average is 24 for example.

 

[Slifer]

Yes cherrypicking.

Not fun when it's done to you huh?

 

[Sunil1z]

correct, and we do already do this. Nobody thinks Jadeja’s standardised average is 24 for example.

Speak for yourself.
He is better than Warne

 

[subshakerz]

Not fun when it's done to you huh?

I don't mind.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Any average adjustments are based on hypotheticals. If we cut SC seamers' averages because of conditions, we should increase SC spinners' averages for similar reasons.
I've struggled through this thread and am amazed at the volume of posts. Some really good posts I might add but so many.

We already add points to the record of SENA spinners or why do you think some people considers Lyon to be better than Ashwin??

 

[capt_Luffy]

Again if Kapil was playing in Eng for majority of his matches like Broad, he would’ve been worse. You require skill in SENA to succeed as well. If Kapil was decent in India and great in Eng and same for Broad, I’d rate Kapil higher

I totally disagree on this. The skill set required to master SENA and SC are different; but SC ones are more difficult. Had Kapil had been English, I don't doubt at all that his record would had improved.

 

[subshakerz]

We already add points to the record of SENA spinners or why do you think some people considers Lyon to be better than Ashwin??

So again, why can't we shave points for SC pacers?

 

[capt_Luffy]

How many average points do we cut for SC bowlers?

I don't think it works like that. It's very situational for every bowler imo. Should we really cut points for Shami and Umesh, when they both dominated other pacers in SC and relatively sucked away in SENA (especially Umesh)?

 

[PlayerComparisons]

Jimmy Andersons average standardizes to 30

 

[subshakerz]

I don't think it works like that. It's very situational for every bowler imo. Should we really cut points for Shami and Umesh, when they both dominated other pacers in SC and relatively sucked away in SENA (especially Umesh)?

Yes we should because they dominated other pacers in SC.

 

[Slifer]

I totally disagree on this. The skill set required to master SENA and SC are different; but SC ones are more difficult. Had Kapil had been English, I don't doubt at all that his record would had improved.

His actual record in England is 13 tests averaging 39 and striking at 78. I'm curious to know to what extent you think his record would improve??

 

[subshakerz]

For my fellow SC posters who are hesitant about cutting the averages of your pacers, please remember there is nothing to be shy about. This isnt Affirmative Action. You are merely claiming what is rightfully theirs.