*Official* 2024 South Africa tour of New Zealand: 2 tests

[BeeGee]

A little before my time but this sounds unfair on Geoff Howarth?

He averaged 30 as captain, low 20s in his last three years as captain. I remember everyone referring to him as a specialist captain at the time.

Yes, I'm that old.

 

[Aidan11]

I still think NZ will win.

 

[Big_Gun]

Bit sad to see the NZ average bowling speeds, Anderson was bowling between 135-140 in the last Ind vs Eng match and he is 41!

Henry first got selected cos he had extra pace.

When Shane Bond was the bowling coach of NZ leading up to the 2015 ODI world cup, He reguraly had Milne crossing 150kph+ and Henry an Boult touching 145kph and Southee close to 140kph.
Then after the world cup a IPL team offered Bond way to much money to turn down, and when he left all the bowlers lost 5kph especially Henry.
Bond must know some tricks on how to train bowlers to bowl faster? but surely with all the science these days, all the bowling coaches must have the same info and knowledge?

 

[Big_Gun]

Its a shame NZ doesnt have a Bowler who can bowl 145kph+ in Tests.

Against Aussie, if I have to pick between Southee and Wagner i'd pick Wagner, Wagner is a Lefty, can pitch is up and swing the new ball, and then can bowl his famous 125kph bouncers that somehow are effective, Southee gets smoked when he tries the bouncer tactic.

 

[Big_Gun]

I think NZ will get SA out cheaply, probably end up chasing around 200 with Williamson getting a ton.

 

[SeamUp]

Whether it's a good thing or not guys could be batting for the last time for SA or it could be their moment to say, pick me again.

 

[Big_Gun]

Wonder who would be consistently our quickest.

Adcock
Heine
P Pollock
Procter
Hanley
Le Roux
Van Zyl

Since we back?

Donald
Bosch
Fanie (I know he was skillful but he could bowl quick if he wanted too?)
Schultz
S Pollock (young)
Klusener (young)
Ngam (young)
Hayward
Ntini
Nel
Zondeki (young)
Steyn
M Morkel
De Lange
Olivier (young)
Morris

Now
Nortje
Coetzee
Burger
Viljoen
Rabada
Dupavillon
Williams
Dala


EP loves producing a quick out of the coastal venues. P Pollock, Hanley, Schultz, Ngam, Hayward, Nortje. Not bad. WP not so much. Garth Le Roux our quickest.

If I had to bet, i'd say Nortje is probably SA fastest bowler, seen some 5 over spells in Test where his average speed was 150kph, never seen Brett Lee average 150kph in a longish spell......

I know some SA will say Donald, but I do remember in the mid to late 90's his average speed was 88mph in some of his faster spells vs England

 

[Bijed]

I think NZ probably come back and win this anyway, but I think it's more likely that they win by ensuring they're chasing a small target and *might* fail to get a moderate one, so one great innings from SA could make this very interesting imo. Hope SA can press their advantage an win, though - whenever you get these situations where you get a bunch of players playing who quite possibly never get another look-in, I think it's great if they get to be part of an upset.

 

[Neil Young]

He averaged 30 as captain, low 20s in his last three years as captain. I remember everyone referring to him as a specialist captain at the time.

Yes, I'm that old.

Averaging 32 for NZ in that era was about right. Bootsy Edgar (Wgtn legend) averaged 30 and he was one of our better players during that time. John Wright, the same.

Howarth was also a vg captain; certainly better than Germon or Southee.

Not sure of my point.

 

[Immenso]

Southee's record as captain is actually better than I expected.


Although. Career record is misleading. It is 'good era' Southee we want to compare against
(Southee - From 2012 onwards, not as captain):

Span	Mat	Inns	Overs	Mdns	Runs	Wkts	BBI	BBM	Ave
2012-2022	71	136	2806.5	655	8181	305	Jul-64	10/108	26.82

 

[Bahnz]

He averaged 30 as captain, low 20s in his last three years as captain. I remember everyone referring to him as a specialist captain at the time.

Yes, I'm that old.

A specialist captain in an era when the captain's role boiled down to: shine the ball and throw it to Hadlee.

 

[BeeGee]

A specialist captain in an era when the captain's role boiled down to: shine the ball and throw it to Hadlee.

Howarth was an exceptional captain. Possibly the best NZ has ever had, which is why he was persisted with for so long while his batting was woeful. It also helped that he had Wright, JF Reid and M Crowe in the top order to take up the slack.

 

[The Hutt Rec]

Southee's record as captain is actually better than I expected.
View attachment 39148

Although. Career record is misleading. It is 'good era' Southee we want to compare against
(Southee - From 2012 onwards, not as captain):

Span	Mat	Inns	Overs	Mdns	Runs	Wkts	BBI	BBM	Ave
2012-2022	71	136	2806.5	655	8181	305	Jul-64	10/108	26.82

Yeah it’s really only been this series he hasn’t looked great, imo. Hopefully having the t20 series off allows him to reset for the Aus tests. He’s played a lot of cricket starting with the World Cup.

 

[SteveNZ]

He's definitely had a career fraught with peaks and troughs, so this is nothing new for Tim. It's just a little bit harder to imagine at 35 that he can dig his way out of the troughs.

I do see the comparison between Anderson and Southee, but Jimmy hasn't played an ODI for nine years, nor a T20 game for almost 10. The wear and tear just isn't even near comparable. Tim has a lot more miles in his legs through not only playing but globe hopping for so long.

It's actually a great credit to him that he's stayed fit and going at 35, given he debuted 16 years ago and has never had any significant resting or absence from any format, and never had any extended injury layoffs.

 

[Bahnz]

I do wonder if he might make a retirement announcement before the Aus series. The next world cup is too far away even if he was good enough to feature in it. The only thing to really go for at this point is Hadlee's record and that is a LONG way away. Probably unrealistic even if he regained form. Maybe he'll keep going to the end of the current WTC cycle, but I can't see him going any further than that.

 

[Neil Young]

Howarth was an exceptional captain. Possibly the best NZ has ever had, which is why he was persisted with for so long while his batting was woeful. It also helped that he had Wright, JF Reid and M Crowe in the top order to take up the slack.

I think you're being harsh on Howarth here. 6 test hundreds, which was great for a NZer at the time and his average was equal with any other player in that era. He barely overlapped with Crowe, or Reid (who played relatively few tests) and he averaged around the same as Wright (and Edgar) during their playing years. Wright's average blossomed latterly. It was around 30 for a long time.

Very good captain, though, I agree with that.

Saying that, I have just looked at Howarth's record, and you may have a point. He didn't score a test century for nigh on the last 5 years of his career, and his average fell off a cliff during that time. Great player in his prime, though. One of our best.

 

[Neil Young]

He's definitely had a career fraught with peaks and troughs, so this is nothing new for Tim. It's just a little bit harder to imagine at 35 that he can dig his way out of the troughs.

I do see the comparison between Anderson and Southee, but Jimmy hasn't played an ODI for nine years, nor a T20 game for almost 10. The wear and tear just isn't even near comparable. Tim has a lot more miles in his legs through not only playing but globe hopping for so long.

It's actually a great credit to him that he's stayed fit and going at 35, given he debuted 16 years ago and has never had any significant resting or absence from any format, and never had any extended injury layoffs.

This is all true. I am pretty down on the guy now, and I seem to forget what a great player he's been for us. NZ ATG.

 

[Immenso]

I assume Howarth's eyes were going. He was wearing glasses by his final season for NZ.

And by a decade later when he was coach in 94/95 he was, according to Greatbatch's book (I think), basically under the influence of the drink. So, don't know when that started.

 

[Neil Young]

I assume Howarth's eyes were going. He was wearing glasses by his final season for NZ.

Yes, and drinking heavily.

 

[Bahnz]

I assume Howarth's eyes were going. He was wearing glasses by his final season for NZ.

And by a decade later when he was coach in 94/95 he was, according to Greatbatch's book (I think), basically under the influence of the drink. So, don't know when that started.

I remember reading in Rutherford's book that people overstated Howarth's drinking because they didn't like him as a coach. Having said that, Howarth was coach while Ruds was captain so it makes sense that they'd stick by each other.