Curtly Ambrose vs Dale Steyn

[shortpitched713]

Played on pancakes against very strong batting line ups. He also wasn't very good at controlling the duke. England suits bowlers who nibble it more.

His averages were mostly pretty irrelevant to game results though, with RSA only being bowled out twice in a match on one occasion. In the 3 games where he took a bunch, RSA won, and in the 2 where he didn't, it was a draw. Philander averaged 6 less than him in 2012, but everyone watching thought Steyn did a better and more important job.

Only on account of global conspiracy.

 

[shortpitched713]

Yeah, I have been reviewing my own arguments in this thread, and I am beginning to reconsider my original position.

I now think that Steyn > Ambrose.

The art of retreat is the hallmark of a true master general.

Although in this instance I honestly wouldn't hold it against anyone to pick either of these bowlers. They are absolutely even to me in my book.

 

[shortpitched713]

These 2 + McGrath, are better than any modern quicks that came before them. Fight me bros.

 

[Saket1209]

These 2 + McGrath, are better than any modern quicks that came before them. Fight me bros.

Marshall and Hadlee are still better than all of them. But yeah they are my top 5 atg fast bowler.

 

[number11]

Both ATGs but I'd opt for Ambrose. He had that extra gear. Steyn is the best quick of the c21 so far though in test cricket.

 

[HouHsiaoHsien]

Steyn. Great at home, ATG in India(in my view at the level of Imran in Wi and Ambrose in Aus, and maybe better, WPM of 5(don’t count the last match, since he barely bowled in one innings and went off), SR of 30+ and average of 21, facing a country’s nearly ATG batting(Sehwag-Dravid-VVS-Ganguly-Dhoni on first tour, and peak Gambir-Tendulkar-Sehwag-Dhoni in the 2nd) lineup in conditions loaded in their favour, where atleast Imran and Ambrose has helpful pitches)near great or great in Aus(outclassed all bowlers of his generation, when seen in context average wise, and brilliant WPM, great SR plus important in some of SA’s more important wins here), pretty good in Eng(only his average is kinda high which still is far better than Broad and Anderson for the same tests, and his WPM and SR are great here as well), meh in SL(I’m only taking record for countries where he played 5 or more matches). More complete than Ambrose in my view: who is great at home, ATG in Aus(one tier above Steyn), great in Eng, and decentish in Pak(considering the 1990 series was on very bowler friendly pitches, and he sucked in the 97 tour).

 

[Patience and Accuracy+Gut]

Steyn. Opens the bowling in my ATG Xi alongside McGrath.

 

[subshakerz]

Steyn. Great at home, ATG in India(in my view at the level of Imran in Wi and Ambrose in Aus, and maybe better, WPM of 5(don’t count the last match, since he barely bowled in one innings and went off), SR of 30+ and average of 21, facing a country’s nearly ATG batting(Sehwag-Dravid-VVS-Ganguly-Dhoni on first tour, and peak Gambir-Tendulkar-Sehwag-Dhoni in the 2nd) lineup in conditions loaded in their favour, where atleast Imran and Ambrose has helpful pitches)near great or great in Aus(outclassed all bowlers of his generation, when seen in context average wise, and brilliant WPM, great SR plus important in some of SA’s more important wins here), pretty good in Eng(only his average is kinda high which still is far better than Broad and Anderson for the same tests, and his WPM and SR are great here as well), meh in SL(I’m only taking record for countries where he played 5 or more matches). More complete than Ambrose in my view: who is great at home, ATG in Aus(one tier above Steyn), great in Eng, and decentish in Pak(considering the 1990 series was on very bowler friendly pitches, and he sucked in the 97 tour).

Yes pretty much the reasons I flipped for Steyn over Ambrose.

Ambrose to me doesn't belong in the same category now as Imran-Steyn. He is a more limited bowler in my view like Lillee.

 

[h_hurricane]

Ambrose > Steyn by a razor thin margin. Much much closer than Ambrose vs Imran though.

 

[Pap Finn Keighl]

Steyn

 

[kyear2]

Ambrose > Steyn by a razor thin margin. Much much closer than Ambrose vs Imran though.

Yeah, I'll go for Steyn over Ambrose, but it's really close.
And agree closer than the Imran comp

Yes pretty much the reasons I flipped for Steyn over Ambrose.

Ambrose to me doesn't belong in the same category now as Imran-Steyn. He is a more limited bowler in my view like Lillee.

Everything in that statement is objectively wrong. How the hell was Lillee limited? And by the way, it's Steyn that didn't seem to have a plan B and was most likely to be tonked around if he was off.
But you have your objective to complete, not the the same league? Really?

Steyn. Opens the bowling in my ATG Xi alongside McGrath.

There is no objective measure for Steyn being in the same class as the top 3 as to merit opening this attack, but fits the narrative.

 

[BazBall21]

Have always instinctively gone Ambrose here tbh despite generally feeling he's not as proven on slow flat Asian wickets as most of the top echelon.

 

[BazBall21]

And yeah, limited is the wrong word for Ambrose. He didn't have as many strings to his bow as a Wasim but his core fundamentals were perfect for a test bowler. I agree though that he was more defensive on unresponsive pitches than McGrath.

Lillee's range of attributes was immense. Think him not being proven in Asia is much more down to lack of opportunity than lack of skill.

 

[OverratedSanity]

Most other things being equal, I'll always choose the uber-destructive, attacking bowler who picked up big hauls but went for runs more often over the miserly one who could sometimes be unthreatening. So Steyn better for me. Purely a preference thing.

 

[Coronis]

Most other things being equal, I'll always choose the uber-destructive, attacking bowler who picked up big hauls but went for runs more often over the miserly one who could sometimes be unthreatening. So Steyn better for me. Purely a preference thing.

Like how Botham > Anderson

 

[HouHsiaoHsien]

I feel Steyn has a slightly better overall record than Ambrose. But he’s below the top 3

 

[subshakerz]

Have always instinctively gone Ambrose here tbh despite generally feeling he's not as proven on slow flat Asian wickets as most of the top echelon.

Ambrose has been overrated on this forum too long. We have to knock him down a peg. Same as we did with Kallis the all-rounder.

And yeah, limited is the wrong word for Ambrose. He didn't have as many strings to his bow as a Wasim but his core fundamentals were perfect for a test bowler. I agree though that he was more defensive on unresponsive pitches than McGrath.

Lillee's range of attributes was immense. Think him not being proven in Asia is much more down to lack of opportunity than lack of skill.

I meant to say Lillee was limited in his performances abroad, not skills.

Ambrose was limited in his skillset though, and once his pace left him after his should injury, he just had bounce and accuracy. No cutters, swing, slower balls, etc.

 

[subshakerz]

Everything in that statement is objectively wrong. How the hell was Lillee limited? And by the way, it's Steyn that didn't seem to have a plan B and was most likely to be tonked around if he was off.
But you have your objective to complete, not the the same league? Really?

Lillee was limited in his performances abroad, and to a lesser extent, Ambrose is.

And i said Ambrose doesn't belong in the same category, not league.

 

[BazBall21]

Ambrose has been overrated on this forum too long. We have to knock him down a peg. Same as we did with Kallis the all-rounder.



I meant to say Lillee was limited in his performances abroad, not skills.

Ambrose was limited in his skillset though, and once his pace left him after his should injury, he just had bounce and accuracy. No cutters, swing, slower balls, etc.

Yeah Ambrose was sometimes guilty of not mixing it up enough which is important on flatter pitches. Whereas I get the impression that Lillee did.

 

[Slifer]

So we all agree then that Walsh is underrated seeing that he performed wonders in Asia and especially flat wickets. Ditto Michael Holding seeing what he did to India in '83 and England on the oval in 1976. They're both more proven on flat wickets than Curtly, I guess they must be better. Bs.

Curtly has his receipts on flat wickets, more importantly he was great vs the best of his time. I'll see your Steyn's great record in Asia but average record in Eng/Australia and raise you a good to average record in Asia (over fewer tests) and an outstanding record in England and Australia. It's close; steyn is in no league or whatever above Curtly if at all.