anil1405
International Captain
I wish I could review my own life this seriously.
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Curtly Ambrose vs Dale Steyn
- Thread starter PlayerComparisons
- Start date
subshakerz
Hall of Fame Member
Main reasons:
- I don't have confidence that Ambrose's bowling style would succeed in the SC with more tests. I think his one good series in Pakistan was more of an outlier. Hence Steyn's SC record means more than Ambrose's superior English/Aussie record.
- Steyn was in his worldclass phase for an exceptionally long time whereas Ambrose post-95 wasn't the same bowler for around half his career. Yes, he had more control than Steyn, but he was also neutralised and very condition dependent.
- Steyn definitely would have had a slightly better record had he debuted a decade earlier
- I don't have confidence that Ambrose's bowling style would succeed in the SC with more tests. I think his one good series in Pakistan was more of an outlier. Hence Steyn's SC record means more than Ambrose's superior English/Aussie record.
- Steyn was in his worldclass phase for an exceptionally long time whereas Ambrose post-95 wasn't the same bowler for around half his career. Yes, he had more control than Steyn, but he was also neutralised and very condition dependent.
- Steyn definitely would have had a slightly better record had he debuted a decade earlier
subshakerz
Hall of Fame Member
Which means my list of ATG pacers is a bit different:
Marshall
McGrath
Hadlee
Imran
Steyn
Ambrose
Lillee
Wasim
Trueman
Donald
Marshall
McGrath
Hadlee
Imran
Steyn
Ambrose
Lillee
Wasim
Trueman
Donald
Steyn for the following reasons:
Bowled in a more batter friendly era(with flatter pitches than in the 90s).
Faced nearly as much competition as Ambrose if not more, still fantastic WPM.
Home away record is better. I won’t think too much of Steyn not doing well in Aus, since he had some good performances their, and he did well in similar conditions in SA. Eng yes is a cause for worry, but Steyn doing well in SC against one of the great batting lineups>>Ambrose doing fantastically with well against poor Eng batting lineups.
Bowled in a more batter friendly era(with flatter pitches than in the 90s).
Faced nearly as much competition as Ambrose if not more, still fantastic WPM.
Home away record is better. I won’t think too much of Steyn not doing well in Aus, since he had some good performances their, and he did well in similar conditions in SA. Eng yes is a cause for worry, but Steyn doing well in SC against one of the great batting lineups>>Ambrose doing fantastically with well against poor Eng batting lineups.
Ya I have the same top 7.
subshakerz
Hall of Fame Member
Would have been interesting to see how Ambrose would do in India. Not having that in his record is a bit of a question mark.
Slifer
International Captain
It's not. Because just like Lillee, Ambrose had one opportunity in 1994 but he was injured. Walsh toured there, and was outstanding. Yet nobody is seriously considering Walsh>Ambrose. Why? Because Asia is not the be all and end all of fast bowling greatness.
You’re right. It isn’t. But for a fast bowler to the best on the top of the top tier, you
have to succeed in all conditions, and generally pacers find it tough in SC. In Walsh‘s case, you have to consider other factors, the fact that he was mediocre was a decent portion in the middle of his career(88-94), in Aus vastly inferior to Ambrose, and in Emg also behind him. Ambrose was also a better bowler at home, had a better average and SR. Now Imran, Mcgrath, Marshall and Hadlee did well nearly everywhere. Steyn is better than Ambrose, because while Ambrose was vastly better against(however a obviously inferior side) Eng, and doesn’t have any great SC success, for Steyn it is the opposite, and because fewer pacers dominate SC than Eng, Steyn has to get more points for that. Plays he did it against the greatest batting team in SC’s cricket history.
subshakerz
Hall of Fame Member
If Walsh had a comparable record to Ambrose outside India, then India would have mattered.
Ambrose is being compared to Marshall, McGrath, Hadlee, Steyn and Imran who all had successful tours of India.
subshakerz
Hall of Fame Member
That is more because of the quality of the batting in the nineties.
In the 80s, all great fast bowlers did well in Australia.
Sunil1z
International Regular
Which means Ambrose should get credit for doing well against toughest opponent . IND was not the main opponent in 90s of WI.
subshakerz
Hall of Fame Member
Yes I said Ambrose was the best touring bowler in Australia.
But to me there is a questionmark on his ability to thrive in the SC compared to the others.
Sunil1z
International Regular
Has any ATG fast bowler struggled in Asia except Lillee ?
subshakerz
Hall of Fame Member
It's not enough for me to assume Ambrose would have done well though with more opportunities compared to others who actually did do well.
Slifer
International Captain
Ambrose is being compared to Steyn. And Steyn may have had success in India but he sucked in England. And relative to Ambrose he wasn't as successful in Australia.
Ambrose is in the same category as McGrath, Marshall and the other gold standard fast bowlers. Ambrose and McGrath's career overlapped enough in the 90s and at no time statistically or per peer review was McGrath ranked above Ambrose.
Slifer
International Captain
Like who? McGrath was great in India but was so so in Pakistan and Sri Lanka. No reason to believe Ambrose couldn't have done similar. His literal stats over 6 tests in Asia are more than passable.
subshakerz
Hall of Fame Member
Steyn didnt really suck in England, he underperformed relative to other ATGs. Similar to Australia.
Steyn won games in India, Pakistan and SL. Ambrose has one good series and one horrible series in Pakistan and that's it. Hence the question mark.
I think overall their away records are close but Steyn's SC record is more extensive and hence I edge him ahead, also knowing that his record in Aus and Eng would definitely be better had he played in the 90s when Ambrose did.
McGrath debuted 5 years after Ambrose and by the late 90s was rated comfortably ahead as Walsh had taken the lead WI pacer role.
subshakerz
Hall of Fame Member
Yes it's true except for Marshall, the other top tiers are also so so in the SC.
It's more about how tested a bowler is. Ambrose has two series in the SC.
Marshall had five. McGrath had seven. Hadlee had four or five. Steyn had seven or eight. Imran y'know. All of those guys with multiple impressive performances.
I am hesitant to put Ambrose that high having never toured India and 18 wickets in 6 tests besides that. I think at this high a level we can nitpick.