Ambrose vs Warne: Greater Test Bowler?

[shortpitched713]

iirc on both the last two “greatest bowler” threads the order was Marshall, McGrath, Hadlee, Murali, Warne, Ambrose, Steyn

If this post is accurate, then this should be a very close comparison between ATG spinner and pacer.

 

[Coronis]

If this post is accurate, then this should be a very close comparison between ATG spinner and pacer.

Fun fact I actually got this info from a post of yours.

Interesting to note how these compare to gftw and Line and Length's early 2022 voting results:

Bat	Anon List	gftw LL 2022
1	Sobers	Sobers
2	Tendulkar	Tendulkar
3	Lara	V Richards
4	V Richards	Lara
5	S Smith	Hutton
6	Hutton	Gavaskar
7	Gavaskar	S Smith
8	G Chappell	G Chappell
9	Sangakkara	Ponting
10	Kallis	G Pollock
11	Ponting	Sangakkara
12	Border	Border
13	G Pollock	Kallis
14	Barrington	S Waugh
15	Weekes	Barrington
16	Dravid	Miandad
17	S Waugh	Dravid
18	Miandad	Weekes
19	Root	Compton
20	Walcott	Younis Khan
21	De Villiers	Walcott
22	Compton	Nourse
23	Harvey	De Villiers
24	Younis Khan	Boycott
25	Williamson	A Flower
26	Boycott	Simpson
27	Kohli	Kanhai
28	B Richards	Harvey
29	Nourse	Worrell
30	Worrell	Root

Bowl	Anon List	gftw LL 2022
1	Marshall	Marshall
2	McGrath	McGrath
3	Hadlee	Hadlee
4	Murali	Murali
5	Warne	Warne
6	Ambrose	Ambrose
7	Steyn	Steyn
8	Wasim	Imran
9	Imran	Lillee
10	Lillee	Trueman
11	Trueman	Wasim
12	Donald	Donald
13	Garner	Garner
14	Lindwall	Lindwall
15	Davidson	Holding
16	Waqar	Waqar
17	Holding	Davidson
18	Laker	Laker

All-Round	Anon	gftw LL 2022
1	Sobers	Sobers
2	Imran	Imran
3	Miller	Kallis
4	Kallis	Miller
5	Botham	Botham
6	Hadlee	Shakib
7	S Pollock	Kapil
8	Kapil	Hadlee
9	Shakib	S Pollock
10	Jadeja	Jadeja

 

[kyear2]

Haven't this been done?

Answer remains the same for me, my top five pacers ahead of the top 2 spinners. Honestly though, due to strike rate Sir Curtly is probably the most vulnerable.

 

[capt_Luffy]

So two bowlers against both the main criticism is their struggle against India.... Yep, this one's extremely close

 

[subshakerz]

I think this is crazy close.

Unlike second tier ATG pacers like Imran and Steyn, Ambrose doesn't have as well rounded a record. I remain skeptical of how he would do in SC with just a couple of series to speak of, one good and one horrible. Post 94, more than half his career, he wasn't really penetrative. But he was very consistent too.

Warne's real weakness was India.

 

[subshakerz]

Haven't this been done?

Answer remains the same for me, my top five pacers ahead of the top 2 spinners. Honestly though, due to strike rate Sir Curtly is probably the most vulnerable.

I would be interested to know why you think Imran should be below Warne and not Ambrose.

 

[Coronis]

I think this is crazy close.

Unlike second tier ATG pacers like Imran and Steyn, Ambrose doesn't have as well rounded a record. I remain skeptical of how he would do in SC with just a couple of series to speak of, one good and one horrible. Post 94, more than half his career, he wasn't really penetrative. But he was very consistent too.

Warne's real weakness was India.

lol what? He has more well rounded record than either of them.

 

[kyear2]

I would be interested to know why you think Imran should be below Warne and not Ambrose.

As stated, it's borderline for Ambrose, so anyone below would be as well. And I haven't said that Imran isn't ahead of them, as I've said in another thread, it's back and forth for me for if he's before or after the spinners.

And it's not a knock, he's locked in at 6th (among pacers) for me, where the consensus on the forum seems to be anywhere from 6th - 8th.

Additionally I do rate Warne marginally higher than Murali so it's incredibly close between the two of them.

Finally, been wondering why Warne is rated as highly as he is, especially by the establishment (saw yet another old sky vid where he was the named in the top 10 of all time, plus the only bowler to be mentioned). I have no doubt McGrath was better, but who was more important to the Aussie dynasty?

 

[Aidan11]

A close one but gotta be Warne.

 

[HouHsiaoHsien]

lol what? He has more well rounded record than either of them.

Nope, Ambrose barely has anything to show in SC. Imran’s record is nearly perfect. Great on flat pitches in SC. Aus record(like Steyn’s) is actually pretty good(except the last series here he played more for his batting, took 40 wickets in 8 matches, then you think of WSC), great in Eng, superlative in WI against the greatest test team to exist, goodish in NZ etc. Steyn also has proved himself in SC(great in Ind, Pak ans Bang), great at home, great in Aus, WI, decent in NZ, decent in Eng(when you consider Broad/Anderson averaged 50 in those games). Their records are noticeably more complete than Ambrose. But here Ambrose is better than Warne

 

[capt_Luffy]

As stated, it's borderline for Ambrose, so anyone below would be as well. And I haven't said that Imran isn't ahead of them, as I've said in another thread, it's back and forth for me for if he's before or after the spinners.

And it's not a knock, he's locked in at 6th (among pacers) for me, where the consensus on the forum seems to be anywhere from 6th - 8th.

Additionally I do rate Warne marginally higher than Murali so it's incredibly close between the two of them.

Finally, been wondering why Warne is rated as highly as he is, especially by the establishment (saw yet another old sky vid where he was the named in the top 10 of all time, plus the only bowler to be mentioned). I have no doubt McGrath was better, but who was more important to the Aussie dynasty?

That's actually a very interesting question. When you compare Warne and McGrath's stats, it becomes increasingly clear that McGrath was better in most places across most conditions. But throughout their whole playing careers, McGrath has been presented as a side kick to Warne..... Imo it has much to do with the fact that McGrath was less showy than Warne. Hell, I still get confused by the fact that when ESPNCRICINFO made thier All Time teams, both Warne and Lillee got in the first team, with Warne being the only player alongside Bradman and Sobers to get a vote from every judge; while McGrath didn't even made the 3rd team in which Prasanna, Qadir and Larwood were present....

 

[HouHsiaoHsien]

I think this is crazy close.

Unlike second tier ATG pacers like Imran and Steyn, Ambrose doesn't have as well rounded a record. I remain skeptical of how he would do in SC with just a couple of series to speak of, one good and one horrible. Post 94, more than half his career, he wasn't really penetrative. But he was very consistent too.

Warne's real weakness was India.

Warne has a poor record in WI as well

 

[capt_Luffy]

Nope, Ambrose barely has anything to show in SC. Imran’s record is nearly perfect. Great on flat pitches in SC. Aus record(like Steyn’s) is actually pretty good(except the last series here he played more for his batting, took 40 wickets in 8 matches, then you think of WSC), great in Eng, superlative in WI against the greatest test team to exist, goodish in NZ etc. Steyn also has proved himself in SC(great in Ind, Pak ans Bang), great at home, great in Aus, WI, decent in NZ, decent in Eng(when you consider Broad/Anderson averaged 50 in those games). Their records are noticeably more complete than Ambrose. But here Ambrose is better than Warne

Ambrose also has a good record in Pakistan while he never played in India and played only one in Srilanka (match figures were 3/27)

 

[HouHsiaoHsien]

Ambrose also has a good record in Pakistan while he never played in India and played only one in Srilanka (match figures were 3/27)

That series in Pak was very very suited to fast bowlers, and had very anti-SC tracks. He never proved himself on flat SC tracks

 

[Coronis]

Nope, Ambrose barely has anything to show in SC. Imran’s record is nearly perfect. Great on flat pitches in SC. Aus record(like Steyn’s) is actually pretty good(except the last series here he played more for his batting, took 40 wickets in 8 matches, then you think of WSC), great in Eng, superlative in WI against the greatest test team to exist, goodish in NZ etc. Steyn also has proved himself in SC(great in Ind, Pak ans Bang), great at home, great in Aus, WI, decent in NZ, decent in Eng(when you consider Broad/Anderson averaged 50 in those games). Their records are noticeably more complete than Ambrose. But here Ambrose is better than Warne

Mate get out of your ass. Ambrose averages under 25 against everyone but Pakistan and under 25 everywhere but Pakistan. He averages 21 at home and 20 away but somehow has a less well rounded record than Steyn (21/24) and Imran (19/25).

 

[capt_Luffy]

Mate get out of your ass. Ambrose averages under 25 against everyone but Pakistan and under 25 everywhere but Pakistan. He averages 21 at home and 20 away but somehow has a less well rounded record than Steyn (21/24) and Imran (19/25).

Ambrose averages 38 against India in 9 matches...

 

[Coronis]

Ambrose averages 38 against India in 9 matches...

mb, I missed that somehow. Still, his record is more consistent and well rounded than Steyn and Imran.

 

[HouHsiaoHsien]

Mate get out of your ass. Ambrose averages under 25 against everyone but Pakistan and under 25 everywhere but Pakistan. He averages 21 at home and 20 away but somehow has a less well rounded record than Steyn (21/24) and Imran (19/25).

He never proved himself on typical SC tracks. That series vs Pak he did well, was on pitches favouring fast bowlers. Imran proved himself everywhere. His Aus average is only high cause of his last tour, where he was more of a batter. You can’t have a complete record if you haven’t proved yourself in a particular set of conditions. And please look at context. In context, Steyn’s records in Aus and Eng which pull down his away average are not bad at all, and magnificent in Aus. Looking at plain averages very naive.

 

[HouHsiaoHsien]

Imran and Steyn proved themselves in all conditions. Also Imran’s averaged marginally over 25 in WI, but took 6 wickets per match against the greatest test ever assembled. That kind of superlative performance is better than most bowlers averaging under 25 in most countries

 

[capt_Luffy]

Imran and Steyn proved themselves in all conditions. Also Imran’s averaged marginally over 25 in WI, but took 6 wickets per match against the greatest test ever assembled. That kind of superlative performance is better than most bowlers averaging under 25 in most countries

Ambrose was deadly in Australia, England and South Africa, arguably more than any other bowler; the only place Imran reached those heights were in Pakistan, and well, performance in Pakistan by Pakistanis back then will always carry a 'but' with them due to the umpires like Shakoor Rana.....