The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

[TheJediBrah]

I'm actually partial to Hogg myself. It is quite amazing that you can make a successful case for him over Warne.

The fact that Warne didn't even bother trying to come back for ODI cricket after 2003 is a big part due to Hogg. Similarly MacGill never even being considered after that point despite his strong domestic white ball numbers. Hogg really came out of nowhere in 2002/03. A couple years before that he was playing more as a batsman than a bowler for WA

 

[Red]

This is approaching @Red 's hatred of Bevan in ODIs

It’s not hatred, he’s just incredibly overrated in the format and has no place in any ATG team imo

 

[Anthony Clayden]

ATG Aus ODI but cherry picking couple of pre-ODI players, I think would have gone great in ODIs...

Warner
Gilchrist
Ponting
G Chappell 7
Miller 2
Bevan 8
Symonds 6
Maxwell 5 (When you bat this deep, you can take his quick runs, even his quick 30-40s)
Davidson 3
Warne or Hogg 4
McGrath 1

Ring field of Symonds, Maxwell, Ponting and Bevan...

 

[TheJediBrah]

Bevan wasn't anything special as a fielder

Warner is a lot better (and Hogg if he's playing), probably Miller and Chappell too but I'm just guessing

 

[howitzer]

ATG Aus ODI but cherry picking couple of pre-ODI players, I think would have gone great in ODIs...

Warner
Gilchrist
Ponting
G Chappell 7
Miller 2
Bevan 8
Symonds 6
Maxwell 5 (When you bat this deep, you can take his quick runs, even his quick 30-40s)
Davidson 3
Warne or Hogg 4
McGrath 1

Ring field of Symonds, Maxwell, Ponting and Bevan...

I like it. Probably think you're overdoing the batting and would have Lillee over Maxwell but the team looks scary otherwise. Assuming Bradman isn't allowed

 

[Victor Ian]

...Assuming Bradman isn't allowed

This is most likely why there will never be another Bradman. Teams won't be allowed to draft him.

 

[TheJediBrah]

I would consider playing Shane Watson over either of Maxwell or Warner. Gives a slightly better 5th bowling option and he's a much better bat than Maxwell.

There's quite a few guys I'd have ahead of Warner tbh, like Hayden or M.Waugh. Warner's overrated.

 

[Red]

Australian ODI team of guys who didn’t play ODI

Don Bradman
Jack Gregory
Charlie Macartney
Victor Trumper
Neil Harvey
Keith Miller
Richie Benaud *
Alan Davidson
Ray Lindwall
Don Tallon +
Bill OReilly

 

[Patience and Accuracy+Gut]

Australian ODI team of guys who didn’t play ODI

Don Bradman
Jack Gregory
Charlie Macartney
Victor Trumper
Neil Harvey
Keith Miller
Richie Benaud *
Alan Davidson
Ray Lindwall
Don Tallon +
Bill OReilly

I would have Trumper opening with Bradman at 3. Also, Grimmett to replace Benaud, though Benaud being lot better bat possibly closes the difference as a bowler in ODIs.

 

[trundler]

Warner > any 90s opener that isn't Tendulkar. The bloke's had 3 fantastic world cups and more importantly, is one of those rare few openers who get the team off to a flying start. ATG white ball player.

 

[howitzer]

Australian ODI team of guys who didn’t play ODI

Don Bradman
Jack Gregory
Charlie Macartney
Victor Trumper
Neil Harvey
Keith Miller
Richie Benaud *
Alan Davidson
Ray Lindwall
Don Tallon +
Bill OReilly

I want to find room for Clem Hill in this team. Not sure who to drop though.

 

[Coronis]

I want to find room for Clem Hill in this team. Not sure who to drop though.

Drop Miller and move Gregory down the order. Miller was a slow batsman.

Greatest stumper ever should be in there over an overrated Tallon in a format where batsmen are always trying to sneak runs and play extremely aggressively to spinners.

 

[howitzer]

Drop Miller and move Gregory down the order. Miller was a slow batsman.

Greatest stumper ever should be in there over an overrated Tallon in a format where batsmen are always trying to sneak runs and play extremely aggressively to spinners.

Agreed on both counts.

Bradman
Trumper
Hill
Macartney
Harvey
Gregory
Benaud (Grimmett?)
Davidson
Lindwall
Oldfield
O'Reilly

 

[peterhrt]

Career runs per hour of some Australian batsmen in first-class cricket up to 1950:

67 - Jack Lyons
56 - Trumper
52 - Macartney
49 - McCabe
48 - Harvey (part career)
47 - Bradman
43 - Clem Hill, Kippax, Ponsford
39 - Morris (part career)
38 - Bardsley
37 - Hassett (part career)
33 - Bill Brown, Woodfull
16 - Alec Bannerman

During the 1921 Australian tour of England, Macartney scored at over 70 runs per hour.

 

[bagapath]

Career runs per hour of some Australian batsmen in first-class cricket up to 1950:

67 - Jack Lyons
56 - Trumper
52 - Macartney
49 - McCabe
48 - Harvey (part career)
47 - Bradman
43 - Clem Hill, Kippax, Ponsford
39 - Morris (part career)
38 - Bardsley
37 - Hassett (part career)
33 - Bill Brown, Woodfull
16 - Alec Bannerman

During the 1921 Australian tour of England, Macartney scored at over 70 runs per hour.

would love to read more on this. where did you find these stats?

 

[peterhrt]

would love to read more on this. where did you find these stats?

They appear in a book All Round The Wicket by Gerald Brodribb, a cricket writer and later an archaeologist. The book appeared in 1951.

Some first-class career scoring rates in runs per hour of non-Australian batsmen:

80 - Jessop
79 - Constantine
61 - Dacre
55 - RE Foster, Woolley
51 - Duleepsinhji
50 - Ranjitsinhji, Weekes (part career),
49 - Donnelly
48 - MacLaren, Compton (part career)
46 - Johnny Tyldesley
45 - Ames
43 - Hobbs, Hendren, Hammond, Bert Sutcliffe (part career)
40 - FS Jackson, Fry
39 - Dempster
36 - Grace, HW Taylor
35 - Hutton (part career)
34 - Herbert Sutcliffe
33 - Headley (most of career)
29 - Merchant (most of career)
28 - Shrewsbury, Bruce Mitchell
16 - Scotton
14 - Dick Barlow

It is noted that Grace, Hobbs and Hammond, for example, scored quickly in their younger days before slowing down. Jessop, Woolley and Macartney carried on playing the same way until the end. Jessop hit a hundred in 55 minutes at the age of 39. Macartney aged 40 reached a hundred before lunch in a Test match.

 

[Coronis]

Career runs per hour of some Australian batsmen in first-class cricket up to 1950:

67 - Jack Lyons
56 - Trumper
52 - Macartney
49 - McCabe
48 - Harvey (part career)
47 - Bradman
43 - Clem Hill, Kippax, Ponsford
39 - Morris (part career)
38 - Bardsley
37 - Hassett (part career)
33 - Bill Brown, Woodfull
16 - Alec Bannerman

During the 1921 Australian tour of England, Macartney scored at over 70 runs per hour.

Runs per hour isn’t really the greatest measure especially when comparing to modern day players, or even players within those different pre modern eras, considering over rate changes.

For these listed players for example, their SRs in test cricket (as calculated by Charles Davis) are as follows:

67 - Trumper
65 - Lyons
62 - McCabe
61 - Bradman
59 - Hill
58 - McCartney
52 - Bardsley
50 - Harvey
46 - Ponsford
43 - Kippax
42 - Morris
41 - Brown
40 - Hassett
34 - Woodfull
22 - Bannerman

 

[Coronis]

They appear in a book All Round The Wicket by Gerald Brodribb, a cricket writer and later an archaeologist. The book appeared in 1951.

Some first-class career scoring rates in runs per hour of non-Australian batsmen:

80 - Jessop
79 - Constantine
61 - Dacre
55 - RE Foster, Woolley
51 - Duleepsinhji
50 - Ranjitsinhji, Weekes (part career),
49 - Donnelly
48 - MacLaren, Compton (part career)
46 - Johnny Tyldesley
45 - Ames
43 - Hobbs, Hendren, Hammond, Bert Sutcliffe (part career)
40 - FS Jackson, Fry
39 - Dempster
36 - Grace, HW Taylor
35 - Hutton (part career)
34 - Herbert Sutcliffe
33 - Headley (most of career)
29 - Merchant (most of career)
28 - Shrewsbury, Bruce Mitchell
16 - Scotton
14 - Dick Barlow

It is noted that Grace, Hobbs and Hammond, for example, scored quickly in their younger days before slowing down. Jessop, Woolley and Macartney carried on playing the same way until the end. Jessop hit a hundred in 55 minutes at the age of 39. Macartney aged 40 reached a hundred before lunch in a Test match.

Particularly Grace and Hobbs don’t surprise me in terms of their scoring slowing down later on - both considering the length of their career and Hobbs also considering the two distinct eras he played across (low but fast scoring on poor pitches pre war vs high but slow scoring on better pitches post war). Hammond in retrospect makes sense too, he also had quite a long career and was a big athletic man like Grace.

 

[Coronis]

Other older cricketers who would be great selections: Bonnor, Trott

 

[Gob]

Hogg wasn't half as good as Warne

Aust batsmen piled on the runs in 03 and 07 compared to 96 and 99. Aust fast bowlers were also significantly better in 03 and 07. Opposition batters had to target Hogg because of the scoreboard pressure and the rest of the Aust attack. I admit that he was difficult to hit out with the wrong un but that was it

I can't imagine, for the life of me, Hogg pulling off anything remotely similar to Warne in 96 and 99 semis.