Fred Trueman , Ray Lindwall or Wes Hall : The Better Fast Bowler?

[BoyBrumby]

Think I read or heard somewhere he missed more tests than he played between his debut and retirement for whatever reason.

No secret he was a man of occasionally trenchant opinions though. To paraphrase Harry Enfield's Yorkshireman character George Whitebread, he said what he liked and liked what he bloody well said.

 

[Bolo.]

I don’t get the recent Adcock hype. Someone tell me more.

I think there are only a couple of people on CW who really rate him.

I wouldn't put him in the top 10 from that era, but questioning if a guy that averaged 21 belongs in the top 10 from an era without many great bowlers is pretty legitimate.

 

[shortpitched713]

I would swing to the majority and go Trueman now.

All 3 are absolute guns though, in slightly different ways.

 

[AndrewB]

Think I read or heard somewhere he missed more tests than he played between his debut and retirement for whatever reason.

This isn't correct, though he did miss a fair number: his 67 Tests were out of 120 played by England.
(For comparison, Brian Statham played 70 Tests out of 136; Jim Laker played 46 Tests out of 96.)

 

[Coronis]

This isn't correct, though he did miss a fair number: his 67 Tests were out of 120 played by England.
(For comparison, Brian Statham played 70 Tests out of 136; Jim Laker played 46 Tests out of 96.)

Either the selectors were real ***** or they were all fragile as ****. Or both.

 

[Starfighter]

Either the selectors were real ****s or they were all fragile as ****. Or both.

Trueman had some injuries and a period of poor form in the fifties, but I think shenanigans was a big reason too.

There was a rumour that Laker was omitted from the 54/55 tour because he rejected Hutton's overtures to play for Yorkshire.

 

[AndrewB]

Laker’s average at that point was 29.26, compared to Wardle’s 22.52, so he wasn’t an obvious automatic pick.

 

[peterhrt]

During his long peak from the mid-1950s till the early 1960s, Statham was rarely actually dropped. Most of the matches he missed were because of injury, personal reasons or being rested.

Hutton's 1954 West Indies tour report made it clear that Trueman and Laker (and Lock) would never tour again under his captaincy. Trueman and Lock had poor series and with MCC still believing in its diplomatic responsibilities, Trueman's behaviour was deemed unacceptable.

Regarding Laker, Hutton simply stopped rating him, noting that he lacked confidence against certain batsmen. When bowling overseas Laker tended to fire the ball in to escape punishment. The South Africans were not impressed during the 1956-57 series when he was outbowled by both Tayfield and Wardle. The tactic did work in Australia in 1958-59 when Laker managed to contain a batting side intent on revenge. Ten years earlier he had taken some of the blame for Australia's successful 404-3 run-chase at Headingley, which affected subsequent selection.

Trueman was generally an automatic home pick from 1957 although he was dropped during both the Ashes series of 1961 and 1964.

Cowdrey thought that Trueman and Statham were actually chosen too often at home by selectors obsessed with pace. On some of the greentops of the time he believed that Les Jackson, Shackleton and Cartwright would have been more effective.

 

[Coronis]

During his long peak from the mid-1950s till the early 1960s, Statham was rarely actually dropped. Most of the matches he missed were because of injury, personal reasons or being rested.

Hutton's 1954 West Indies tour report made it clear that Trueman and Laker (and Lock) would never tour again under his captaincy. Trueman and Lock had poor series and with MCC still believing in its diplomatic responsibilities, Trueman's behaviour was deemed unacceptable.

Regarding Laker, Hutton simply stopped rating him, noting that he lacked confidence against certain batsmen. When bowling overseas Laker tended to fire the ball in to escape punishment. The South Africans were not impressed during the 1956-57 series when he was outbowled by both Tayfield and Wardle. The tactic did work in Australia in 1958-59 when Laker managed to contain a batting side intent on revenge. Ten years earlier he had taken some of the blame for Australia's successful 404-3 run-chase at Headingley, which affected subsequent selection.

Trueman was generally an automatic home pick from 1957 although he was dropped during both the Ashes series of 1961 and 1964.

Cowdrey thought that Trueman and Statham were actually chosen too often at home by selectors obsessed with pace. On some of the greentops of the time he believed that Les Jackson, Shackleton and Cartwright would have been more effective.

iirc didn’t we have a thread involving this tour sometime recently? Wasn’t it the consensus (of us or what we read) that it wasn’t actually Trueman? wrt Laker and Cowdrey’s comments it just further cements in my mind that players shouldn’t be involved in the selection process tbh. Personal bias come into it far too often. e.g Wardle (though obviously had a great record too) was a Yorkshire player like Hutton, unlike Laker who though being born in Yorkshire didn’t play for them.

 

[Blenkinsop]

selectors obsessed with pace

plus ca change

 

[peterhrt]

iirc didn’t we have a thread involving this tour sometime recently? Wasn’t it the consensus (of us or what we read) that it wasn’t actually Trueman? wrt Laker and Cowdrey’s comments it just further cements in my mind that players shouldn’t be involved in the selection process tbh. Personal bias come into it far too often. e.g Wardle (though obviously had a great record too) was a Yorkshire player like Hutton, unlike Laker who though being born in Yorkshire didn’t play for them.

There were differing accounts of incidents involving Trueman on that tour but his general behaviour and lack of tact were held by the MCC hierarchy (and Hutton) to be incompatible with the diplomatic image the club still felt it needed to project abroad. Worrell always backed Trueman's own version of events but they were good friends.

Gubby Allen and Freddie Brown had little time for Trueman. Allen personally vetoed his selection for the A tour to Pakistan in 1955-56 and Brown tried to send him home early from the 1958-59 Australian tour on the grounds of lack of fitness. Skipper May had to intervene and order Brown to leave Trueman alone.

Despite their good record, England during the 1950s were a disparate group of individuals, most of whom didn't get along with one another. Few felt their place in the team was secure.

Hutton genuinely thought that Wardle and Appleyard were better bowlers on less responsive pitches than Lock and Laker (not just because they played for Yorkshire) and others agreed. But Appleyard suffered from illness during much of his playing career and Wardle was the antithesis of a team player.

There was also a long-standing belief among English selectors that off-spin was ineffective in Australia.

 

[Coronis]

Just imagining if Freddie hadn’t been held back by these silly selectors… Could’ve played another 30 matches and had ~450 wickets. Would’ve held the record til the 21st century.

 

[kyear2]

There were differing accounts of incidents involving Trueman on that tour but his general behaviour and lack of tact were held by the MCC hierarchy (and Hutton) to be incompatible with the diplomatic image the club still felt it needed to project abroad. Worrell always backed Trueman's own version of events but they were good friends.

Gubby Allen and Freddie Brown had little time for Trueman. Allen personally vetoed his selection for the A tour to Pakistan in 1955-56 and Brown tried to send him home early from the 1958-59 Australian tour on the grounds of lack of fitness. Skipper May had to intervene and order Brown to leave Trueman alone.

Despite their good record, England during the 1950s were a disparate group of individuals, most of whom didn't get along with one another. Few felt their place in the team was secure.

Hutton genuinely thought that Wardle and Appleyard were better bowlers on less responsive pitches than Lock and Laker (not just because they played for Yorkshire) and others agreed. But Appleyard suffered from illness during much of his playing career and Wardle was the antithesis of a team player.

There was also a long-standing belief among English selectors that off-spin was ineffective in Australia.

Love these posts, the context they provide is invaluable.

 

[Starfighter]

Laker’s average at that point was 29.26, compared to Wardle’s 22.52, so he wasn’t an obvious automatic pick.

I think the fact that Jim McConnon was picked over him is most commonly raised, aside from those who were actually around at the time to see the interactions.

 

[AndrewB]

I think the fact that Jim McConnon was picked over him is most commonly raised, aside from those who were actually around at the time to see the interactions.

That was certainly a curious pick.
In the book "Bent Arms and Dodgy Wickets" (I've no idea how well informed this book is) it says "Hutton was clearly disappointed not to have Laker, Lock and Trueman at his disposal, though. Trueman was omitted by a single vote." and "Hutton was bewildered, though, as to why the unproven Glamorgan off-spinner Jim McConnon had been selected instead of Jim Laker who had helped bowl England to Ashes glory in 1953."

OTOH, in Laker's "Spinning Round the World", Laker includes an anecdote (a conversation in the West Indies the previous winter) which suggests that Hutton didn't want to pick him (or at least didn't expect him to be picked).

Putting aside Trueman being scapegoated for off-field behaviour in the 1953-4 tour, Compton (who had no particular reason afaik to be biased) was clearly unimpressed by Trueman's on-field behaviour then ("I think he was the only one who saw a funny side to his behaviour. His fellows of the MCC side by and large did not, and the West Indians used to be incensed"), and it's not as if his cricketing record on the tour made up for this. He also thought that Hutton (and Palmer)'s weak management of Trueman was partly to blame for this. (This is quoting from "End of an Innings").

 

[Coronis]

Its funny though as noted in stories of that tour that Fred was friends with Worrell and some other Windies players before the tour - I don’t think I’ve read any accounts of the West Indian players being upset with him - mainly the crowds.

 

[Johan]

30-17-1 in favour of Fiery Fred

 

[Coronis]

30-17-1 in favour of Fiery Fred

And I’m not sure why.

 

[capt_Luffy]

And I’m not sure why.

Lindwall was better imo. Trueman played in the most supportive pitches of his era and averages 28 and 32 in Australia and WI. Good, but when the only other country he toured being NZ, I have to say his away record is very ordinary.

 

[Red]

I could be wrong but I was under the impression Lindwall was considered cricket’s best fast bowler ever up until the Lillee and WI quicks era.