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*Official* Match #10 — Australia Vs South Africa Oct 12th, Lucknow

trundler

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Where's the evidence that Smith and Warner are past their peak in ODI'S? Warner's been great, and Smith made 80 odd one game before the WC. Where not "carrying" maxwell and marsh FFS, there half the reason we where so highly rated going in despite the losses in SA and IND and the head injury.
Maxwell is a good 7. Any higher and he's a liability. Marsh and Maxwell together in the top 6 is iffy. Marsh is a form player like Roy or Zaman. He's also going to suck a lot of the time. 4, 5 and 6 have to be locked in and firing for both Maxwell and Marsh to fit the side well. Otherwise you get a side that scores a big total every now and then but haplessly collapses in between.
 

SteveNZ

Cricketer Of The Year
Where's the evidence that Smith and Warner are past their peak in ODI'S? Warner's been great, and Smith made 80 odd one game before the WC. Where not "carrying" maxwell and marsh FFS, there half the reason we where so highly rated going in despite the losses in SA and IND and the head injury.
I don't feel like it's sticking my neck out too far to suggest a 36-year-old and 34-year-old are past their peak, even if they are still going ok. Yep, Warner has scored runs recently, but Smith isn't exactly flush with runs.

If you were highly rated, they got it wrong. You are carrying Maxwell, and Marsh is inconsistent. Your keepers are no good and you can't choose which one is worse. Your front-line spinner is flat out not conceding 100 every game. I would say bad things about Cummins but I love him so I won't.
 

SteveNZ

Cricketer Of The Year
Maxwell is a good 7. Any higher and he's a liability. Marsh and Maxwell together in the top 6 is iffy. Marsh is a form player like Roy or Zaman. He's also going to suck a lot of the time. 4, 5 and 6 have to be locked in and firing for both Maxwell and Marsh to fit the side well. Otherwise you get a side that scores a big total every now and then but haplessly collapses in between.
This is my exact point. If Marsh was an opener in a side with a powerhouse top 6, you'd be comfortable. But in this side, he's a liability if he's going to get out early more often than not.
 

Nintendo

Cricketer Of The Year
I don't feel like it's sticking my neck out too far to suggest a 36-year-old and 34-year-old are past their peak, even if they are still going ok. Yep, Warner has scored runs recently, but Smith isn't exactly flush with runs.

If you were highly rated, they got it wrong. You are carrying Maxwell, and Marsh is inconsistent. Your keepers are no good and you can't choose which one is worse. Your front-line spinner is flat out not conceding 100 every game. I would say bad things about Cummins but I love him so I won't.
Maxwell is a good 7. Any higher and he's a liability. Marsh and Maxwell together in the top 6 is iffy. Marsh is a form player like Roy or Zaman. He's also going to suck a lot of the time. 4, 5 and 6 have to be locked in and firing for both Maxwell and Marsh to fit the side well. Otherwise you get a side that scores a big total every now and then but haplessly collapses in between.
Exactly. That's why maxwell randomly getting moved to 5 and 6 this wc with no transition was so frustrating.
 

the big bambino

International Captain
No team can afford to have so many unproven (Marnus, Green) or mercurial (Maxwell, Stoinis, Marsh) players at once. None of these guys should be in contention to make the side as batsmen alone anyway but even if they are, balance considerations should've meant only one of them plays.
Mate we don't have much better. Both have to be picked. I mean I agree overall with you but we're not flush with batting talent to imagine we have two better to replace the bolded.

Anyway, now's the time to panic. Swap Marsh and Marnus until Travis is fit. Marsh has been rubbish but you'd back him to score runs over the the likes of Maxi and Stoin. He's won us a T20 WC and scored an ashes ton recently so the ability is there. Besides you can't drop all of them. Bring Green in at 5 and make him work. You pick a team with options and then don't use them. Inglis and Carey ... hmm let's see. We probably need someone who's a better fit down the order which suggests Carey but since the switch is made may as well stick with Inglis.

Never been a fan of Maxi but at least he's bowling well. But all that shows is the selectors went in light with spin and then relied on the wrong kind for India. You kind of wonder if the selectors pay attention. You'd think quality is a good argument for selection and I wonder why we don't keep guys like Usman and Lyon in the mix. I'd feel better if they were in the squad. The sidelining of Daniel Hughes is a disgrace. What's the policy here? We don't rate quality test players for odis but won't pick blokes who tear it up domestically in the format.

We deprive ourselves of balance with the fixation on Stoin. Why can't the selectors see he's junk? I don't even think he's domestic standard so what's he even doing there? His continued selection has filled him up with an unentitled sense of self belief when he's just lucky. Get sick of seeing him balance his helmet on his fat bonce walking back to the pavilion having made 4. And that dropped catch ... just get lost.

My word the fielding - and as a consequence the captaincy. Cummins is a bad choice, he's low energy. Whatever part he played in shivving Langer and placing the bloodied robe around the Ranga betrays an attitude imo. If what I'm reading about the current regime is true then the culture of slack is Cummins' choice. I think he should be dropped and throw the captaincy to Smith. Like a few others here I was worried when Warner took a catch and the low key reaction was pretty unsettling. Even before that there was a telling sign with Inglis' reaction to his own mistakes.

The scheduling of the warms up was strange. SA is our Bermuda Triangle atm so why did we go to country where we screw up so badly and where the conditions are different to where we'll be playing? Poor selection, poor form, poor preparation and a side that seemingly has no ambition to win this thing. Our only hope is that we manage to snag a few Ws before Travis' return and hopefully he can produce the miracle not even the bible is capable of.
 

loterry1994

International Debutant
Maxwells only good at 5. When the top 4 is going well and the run rate is high and you’re well into the innings other than similar situations to that you’re always dropping him down lower . His not the type of guy you want in at a time where your top order fails and you expect him to build a long partnership then tee off. Don’t think you can put much the blame on the all rounders and keeper down the order for our batting. Especially when these guys are coming 3-4 wickets down at like 15-20 overs you can’t expect these guys to carry the batting innings and bat like 35 overs.
 

TheJediBrah

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That doesn't make the balance not terrible. It just a thoroughly rotten team composition. Maxwell is the foremost of the no rounders and the only one who can be considered a lock. He's a luxury that only teams with a stable top 6 can afford. He should not be batting higher than 7 since he's going to fail more often than not. Throwing in 2 or 3 more flukey batsmen on top of that is a recipe for disaster. Stoinis, Marsh and Green do not complement the rest of the side by providing stability. Stoinis is neither icing nor cake but just a waste man and Marsh needs to be in prime form to be useful. Green isn't the #5 Australia needs too. He's another player that needs an otherwise stable batting order to flourish and find his feet. No team can afford to have so many unproven (Marnus, Green) or mercurial (Maxwell, Stoinis, Marsh) players at once. None of these guys should be in contention to make the side as batsmen alone anyway but even if they are, balance considerations should've meant only one of them plays.
You've ignored the whole point of my post. Namely that there aren't better options. I never said it was a good team balance.

We already have warner, smith and marnus who have to bat top 4 (should be top 3 really), Marsh probably too and Head when fit is in the same category. Adding a Khawaja to the mix doesn't help.
 

the big bambino

International Captain
Usman would make a big difference. He got back into test cricket on the back of his odi form. He can play the format and should've been given opportunities to keep him available as an option.
 

TheJediBrah

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You know what this is all horse**** anyway and without the nothing player Stoinis there wouldn't even be an issue. While it's tempting to blame personnel for losing and pretend you have better options at home, sometimes your best players just play poorly and/or are not good enough. On paper the Aus side is still as good as any, but cricket isn't played on paper. The solution is to field better and bat better and bowl better to their potential, which is clearly not happening.

The main obvious personnel issues with this side are Stoinis and maybe Marnus' lack of proven performance. Both of which are solved with Head coming back (then Marnus wouldn't be there) and Green playing instead of Stoinis (which he definitely should be). So they can be solved easily.

The real personnel issues are not having a performing keeper/bat or spinner. Agar's injury probably hurts with this. At full strength they should be fine and there's no issue with team balance the more I think about it.

Blaming tOo mAnY aLl rOuNdErS is ignorance. It's just Stoinis
 

trundler

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You've ignored the whole point of my post. Namely that there aren't better options. I never said it was a good team balance.

We already have warner, smith and marnus who have to bat top 4 (should be top 3 really), Marsh probably too and Head when fit is in the same category. Adding a Khawaja to the mix doesn't help.
My point was even if these are the best players on paper they shouldn't all play together. Not just because they're all nominally all rounders but because they don't complement each other.
 

loterry1994

International Debutant
You know what this is all horse**** anyway and without the nothing player Stoinis there wouldn't even be an issue. While it's tempting to blame personnel for losing and pretend you have better options at home, sometimes your best players just play poorly and/or are not good enough. On paper the Aus side is still as good as any, but cricket isn't played on paper. The solution is to field better and bat better and bowl better to their potential, which is clearly not happening.

The main obvious personnel issues with this side are Stoinis and maybe Marnus' lack of proven performance. Both of which are solved with Head coming back (then Marnus wouldn't be there) and Green playing instead of Stoinis (which he definitely should be). So they can be solved easily.

The real personnel issues are not having a performing keeper/bat or spinner. Agar's injury probably hurts with this. At full strength they should be fine and there's no issue with team balance the more I think about it.

Blaming tOo mAnY aLl rOuNdErS is ignorance. It's just Stoinis
Stoinis wasn’t in the first game and we still got rolled. Taking him out for Green still doesn’t do much. Our key players need to step up. Our top 3 has gotten out early both games now and our bowling hasn’t looked good past the power play
 

Daemon

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Way too much of an overreaction bringing up a whole host of things like awful player management, dubious selections, mental state of the team, coach being a dweeb etc. It’s broken toenails level of reaching for an answer.

The reality is that a couple of injuries have ****ed up the team, Zampa has lost form completely and the team is carrying Stoinis.

The result is a team that is both not particularly strong on paper and also on a bit of a bad run. That’s it.

Very odd to look at this and start psychoanalysing mindsets, wanting coaches axed and players dropped (without suggesting suitable replacements), and generally drawing conclusions based on half baked assumptions. Lots of poor posting in this thread.
 

TheJediBrah

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My point was even if these are the best players on paper they shouldn't all play together. Not just because they're all nominally all rounders but because they don't complement each other.
They should play together though. There's not a permutation of Australian cricketers that is going to perform better.

Head - Warner - Smith - M.Marsh - Inglis/Carey - Maxwell - Green

You're not going to strengthen this in any way by bringing in another specialist batsman, unless it's in addition to these 7 and Green or a keeper bats at 8. Which might be a better option at this stage.
 

the big bambino

International Captain
Way too much of an overreaction bringing up a whole host of things like awful player management, dubious selections, mental state of the team, coach being a dweeb etc. It’s broken toenails level of reaching for an answer.

The reality is that a couple of injuries have ****ed up the team, Zampa has lost form completely and the team is carrying Stoinis.

The result is a team that is both not particularly strong on paper and also on a bit of a bad ru
n. That’s it.

Very odd to look at this and start psychoanalysing mindsets, wanting coaches axed and players dropped (without suggesting suitable replacements), and generally drawing conclusions based on half baked assumptions. Lots of poor posting in this thread.
Lets not blame poor form, selection, attitude and preparation.

Lets blame poor form, selection, attitude and preparation instead.

Thanks guy.
 

TheJediBrah

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Stoinis wasn’t in the first game and we still got rolled. Taking him out for Green still doesn’t do much. Our key players need to step up. Our top 3 has gotten out early both games now and our bowling hasn’t looked good past the power play
Green is a much better option than Stoinis
 

loterry1994

International Debutant
Green is a much better option than Stoinis
No one even expects him to bowl more than 5 overs which he rarely does or score big runs. It’s pretty much a like for like replacement at this stage. Your acting like Greens some world beater if he gets picked
 

Spikey

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I'm afraid this just isn't true. The only all-rounder that doesn't merit a place in the team as a batsman alone is Stoinis, and everyone has agreed for years that he shouldn't be anywhere near the team. Mitch Marsh and Glenn Maxwell are essentially playing as batsmen, with other skills as a bonus. Cam Green is a borderline case but it's fair to say he would be picked as a batsman ahead of just about anyone else in domestic cricket too.

just btw MMarsh and Green absolutely doesn't deserve a place in the team on batting alone. Green possibly in the future but hard to say he does at this stage. the good news is they all-rounders! the bad news is a team doesn't need 4 all-rounders like we did at times earlier this year
 

Molehill

Cricketer Of The Year
All the talk about the balance of the side etc is all well and good but really Australia simply need to start playing better.
In particular their batsman who, to put it mildly are batting like ****s at the moment.
Easy to blame the batsmen, but I'm not at all convinced that was a 300+ wicket. If the Test boys don't take wickets then they leak runs. Zampa looks an absolute mess at the moment (I'm convinced he's a T20 only bowler now) and Maxwell is doing the 5th bowler role when really he should be the 6th who fills in with a few.

Of course it would help if catches were taken.
 

TheJediBrah

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No one even expects him to bowl more than 5 overs which he rarely does or score big runs. It’s pretty much a like for like replacement at this stage. Your acting like Greens some world beater if he gets picked
He was averaging 50 with the bat in ODIs a month ago and had played some real match-winning innings, and while his bowling clearly hasn't clicked yet the building blocks are there. Issue is he is probably another one that should be batting top 4. Anyway the only guy in domestics that probably would be able to do a better job than him at a finisher role is Ashton Turner. Stoinis isn't.
just btw MMarsh and Green absolutely doesn't deserve a place in the team on batting alone. Green possibly in the future but hard to say he does at this stage. the good news is they all-rounders! the bad news is a team doesn't need 4 all-rounders like we did at times earlier this year
You're absolutely cooked if you think Mitch Marsh wouldn't have been one of the first picked in this side right now even if he didn't bowl, which he isn't anyway. Fr what specialist batsman is getting picked ahead of Mitch Marsh as of the WC squad selection?
 

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