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Which Asian all time xi is the strongest?

Which nation has the strongest all time test team?

  • Total voters
    47
S

subshakerz

Hall of Fame Member
h_hurricane said:
On topic, yes Pakistan ATG team is better on raw quality than Indian ATG team. However, in a 5 match series against another ATG team, I would expect Pakistan ATGs to miss more matches than their Indian counterparts, which might make their overall series performances a bit more comparable.
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Who specifically are you concerned will break down? Shoaib sticks out but the others are not as injury prone.
 
h_hurricane

h_hurricane

International Vice-Captain
subshakerz said:
Who specifically are you concerned will break down? Shoaib sticks out but the others are not as injury prone.
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Imran only played 64% of all Pakistan matches from debut till retirement, and I am aware that part of it is due to an unusually long career. Wasim 79%, Waqar 79%. It could be a mixture of reasons varying from injury(natural for fast bowlers) to infighting. Either way, I don't see them playing all of the matches. On the other hand, I expect Indian ATGs (Kapil, Gavaskar, Tendulkar, Dravid) to play most of the matches and bridge whatever gap that exists.
 
S

subshakerz

Hall of Fame Member
h_hurricane said:
Imran only played 64% of all Pakistan matches from debut till retirement, and I am aware that part of it is due to an unusually long career. Wasim 79%, Waqar 79%. It could be a mixture of reasons varying from injury(natural for fast bowlers) to infighting. Either way, I don't see them playing all of the matches. On the other hand, I expect Indian ATGs (Kapil, Gavaskar, Tendulkar, Dravid) to play most of the matches and bridge whatever gap that exists.
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It's a bit misleading in Imran's case. He was dropped for years in the 70s and then had WSC. True he also had a freak shin injury that cost him two years, but it's not like he regularly broke down during series, he was pretty fit.

Anyways, we are talking about intending for four worldclass pacers for Pakistan playing in the team, so even if one breaks down you still have enough to take out India and quality pacers to fill the gap.
 
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h_hurricane

h_hurricane

International Vice-Captain
subshakerz said:
It's a bit misleading in Imran's case. He was dropped for years in the 70s and then had WSC. True he also had a freak shin injury that cost him two years, but it's not like he regularly broke down during series, he was pretty fit.

Anyways, we are talking about intending for four worldclass pacers for Pakistan playing in the team, so even if one breaks down you still have enough to take out India and quality pacers to fill the gap.
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No, this is where I differ. If Imran is not available, his replacement is a massive downgrade. Shoaib has massive availability problems as you said. Asif and Afridi haven't had fulfilling test careers, so you can't be sure how they are going to do in a variety of conditions. I don't think Pakistan is going to play more than 75% of their matches with a full strength side. Indian probably 85-90%.

Even if you think this is a hypothesis, just go through the records of both these sides in last 50 years of so. Ever since the first ATGs of both India and Pakistan debuted (namely Gavaskar and Imran in 1971) until now, India actually has a better overall record. Remove minnows, and the gap increases. And this is because Pakistan, in spite of a better raw quality in their best players, haven't been able to put them in the park often enough.

And it is not even because when Pakistan was at its best, there weren't enough opportunities play as many tests as India. Combine 80s and 90s, Pakistan played more tests than India. Player availability wasn't just a thing for them.
 
S

subshakerz

Hall of Fame Member
h_hurricane said:
No, this is where I differ. If Imran is not available, his replacement is a massive downgrade. Shoaib has massive availability problems as you said. Asif and Afridi haven't had fulfilling test careers, so you can't be sure how they are going to do in a variety of conditions. I don't think Pakistan is going to play more than 75% of their matches with a full strength side. Indian probably 85-90%.

Even if you think this is a hypothesis, just go through the records of both these sides in last 50 years of so. Ever since the first ATGs of both India and Pakistan debuted (namely Gavaskar and Imran in 1971) until now, India actually has a better overall record. Remove minnows, and the gap increases. And this is because Pakistan, in spite of a better raw quality in their best players, haven't been able to put them in the park often enough.

And it is not even because when Pakistan was at its best, there weren't enough opportunities play as many tests as India. Combine 80s and 90s, Pakistan played more tests than India. Player availability wasn't just a thing for them.
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A few points:
- Highly unlikely a guy as fitness obsessed like Imran is going to breakdown mid-series when he rarely if ever did that in his career

- Pakistan until the 2000s had a notably better overall record than India, thanks in large part due to Imran, Wasim and Waqar, but India with better players have gained ground the past 20 years while Pakistan have regressed because their teams are just not as strong and no pacer has come with a full career taking over 200 wickets since then.

- The Pakistan team in the OP had Imran, Wasim, Waqar and Shoaib. Frankly you just need Imran and one of peak Wasim, Shoaib or Waqar to make it an even contest. If you have three pacers, Pakistan have a huge advantage. Four pacers is overkill and India would have no chance. Which means if one of them is injured, you can replace him with Sarfraz Nawaz and Pakistan still have enough resources to finish the job frankly.

- If it was a longer series, Imran being the shrewd captain he is would likely rotate his three pacers in and out of the team anyways, or opt for shorter spells each to prevent injuries, etc. In this real match situation, four pacers is a real luxury.
 
S

subshakerz

Hall of Fame Member
number11 said:
I'd opt for Pakistan in answer to the OP wrt Test cricket.

ODIs would be more interesting.
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Yes, let's go with the following lineups for ODIs:

India: Tendulkar, Sehwag/Ganguly, Sharma, Kohli, Yuvraj, Dhoni, Kapil, Harbi/Kumble, Bumrah, Zaheer, Agarkar

Pakistan: Anwar, Afridi, Zaheer, Babar, Miandad, Imran, Razzaq, Moin, Wasim, Waqar, Saqlain

SL: Jayasuria, Dilshan, Sanga, DeSilva, Mathews, Ranatunga, Perera, Vaas, Malinga, Murali, Mendis

You may quibble with the teams but each needs at least six proper bowling options in ODIs ideally.

India and Pakistan would be close but Pakistan win IMO due to superior bowling and more late hitters.
 
F

Fuller Pilch

Hall of Fame Member
Plus rest of Asia:
R Gurbaz (Afgh), Tamim (Bang), Ibrahim Zadran, (Afgh), Shakib (Bang), Chapman (HK), Mushfiqur (Bang), Mahmadullah (Bang), Nabi (Afgh), Rashid Khan (Afgh), Mortaza (Bang), The Fizz (Bang)
 
TheJediBrah

TheJediBrah

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Fuller Pilch said:
Plus rest of Asia:
R Gurbaz (Afgh), Tamim (Bang), Ibrahim Zadran, (Afgh), Shakib (Bang), Chapman (HK), Mushfiqur (Bang), Mahmadullah (Bang), Nabi (Afgh), Rashid Khan (Afgh), Mortaza (Bang), The Fizz (Bang)
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That team would lose more ODIs than they'd win even against regular countries
 
S

subshakerz

Hall of Fame Member
CricAddict said:
It was Pakistan till 10 years back. But it is India now with Jadeja, Ashwin and Bumrah in the picture. Indian batting>Pak batting while Pak pace bowling still greater than Indian pacers but India spin bowling all-rounders >> Pak spinners
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We are talking about all-round strength and Pak pace matters far more than India spin espeically in England/SA.
 
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h_hurricane

h_hurricane

International Vice-Captain
Unlike their respective test teams, Pakistan has nothing up on India in ODIs. In fact, India has been clearly the better ODI team. Win loss ratio for India and Pakistan is 1.24 and 1.20 respectively. Remove minnows, and the gap widens as the ratio changes to 1.03 and 0.93 respectively. Pakistan has the better head to head stat, but the gap would have arguably narrowed had the two nations played each other more frequently in the recent past. Even against strong teams like WI until 1996, Australia or South Africa, India has the better record. More WC wins, more global tournaments wins etc. too. Not to speak of the head to head record in global tournaments. It is really delusional to think that better bowling lineup in paper translates to better performance on field, especially in ODIs.
 
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