Kapil Dev vs Imran Khan

[subshakerz]

why was Kapil consistently higher in the ICC ratings a batsman vs Imran?

Depends how much you trust the rankings. I don't give them that much weight.

 

[ankitj]

It's a reasonable point that Kapil reached higher rating as well as ranking both as batsman and bowler in ODIs than Imran did. It points to something. Maybe it's down to the fact that Imran wasn't contributing volumes even though he had great averages.

 

[trundler]

It's a reasonable point that Kapil reached higher rating as well as ranking as batsman in ODIs than Imran did. It points to something. Maybe it's down to the fact that Imran wasn't contributing volumes even though he had great average.

Edit: not as bowler.

Imran missed more matches because of injuries. This is probably the biggest factor. Being more durable is a point in Kapil's favour but he was also a lot slower.

 

[ankitj]

Edited my post again. Kapil has higher peak rating in both departments

 

[ankitj]

Imran missed more matches because of injuries. This is probably the biggest factor. Being more durable is a point in Kapil's favour but he was also a lot slower.

Imran didn't bowl for a sequence of 14 matches in early to mid 80s. That impacts his wpm too.

 

[subshakerz]

It's a reasonable point that Kapil reached higher rating as well as ranking both as batsman and bowler in ODIs than Imran did. It points to something. Maybe it's down to the fact that Imran wasn't contributing volumes even though he had great averages.

Also could be due to how their most productive cricket was either clustered with a higher percentage of games in a year or spread out.

 

[The Sean]

Why was Kepler Weasels in the top 5 batsmen throughout his career despite being straight up bad?

I'll accept criticism of most players, but Kepler Wessels is off limits. The man's a hero. For a time as a kid he was my second favourite cricketer after TOTAB.

 

[subshakerz]

Imran didn't bowl for a sequence of 14 matches in early to mid 80s. That impacts his wpm too.

That was his shin injury when he played as a pure bat.

 

[ma1978]

All of those things - durability, injuries - speak to value. I can possibly accept that Imran was a better ODI cricketer on the talent, although this is arguable. There’s no question though that Kapil was more valuable over the course of their careers.

 

[ankitj]

Speaking of value to the team, I always think MoM awards are very instructive especially to compare all round value of a player. Imran has 13 awards in 175 matches, Kapil has 11 in 225 matches. Yet Kapil has higher ICC ratings than Imran. It's quite interesting this comparison.

All-round records | One-Day Internationals | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo.com

stats.espncricinfo.com

All-round records | One-Day Internationals | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo.com

stats.espncricinfo.com

ODI matches | Individual records (captains, players, umpires) | Most player-of-the-match awards | ESPNcricinfo

Find records of Most player-of-the-match awards in ODI matches only on ESPNcricinfo.

www.espncricinfo.com

 

[subshakerz]

All of those things - durability, injuries - speak to value. I can possibly accept that Imran was a better ODI cricketer on the talent, although this is arguable. There’s no question though that Kapil was more valuable over the course of their careers.

Lol of course it's a question which is why Imran is edging him out in votes.

Imran had one major injury, his shin, that cost him two years of bowling and 14 games otherwise his WPM would be even more. It's not like Botham who had injuries in between and then declined as a result.

The entire pro-Kapil argument hinges on ignoring how good a bowler Imran was throughout the 80s. I have yet to see a convincing case made for Kapil as a better bowler.

It should be freaking obvious Imran was better as a bowler, he took as many four-fers in 50 less games than Kapil, Imran was a 22/23 averaging worldclass bowler for like 75 percent of his career, whereas Kapil didn't really go below 25 at any point in his career, and Imran in WCs was much superior too.

 

[ma1978]

Speaking of value to the team, I always think MoM awards are very instructive especially to compare all round value of a player. Imran has 13 awards in 175 matches, Kapil has 11 in 225 matches. Yet Kapil has higher ICC ratings than Imran. It's quite interesting this comparison.

All-round records | One-Day Internationals | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo.com

stats.espncricinfo.com

All-round records | One-Day Internationals | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo.com

stats.espncricinfo.com

ODI matches | Individual records (captains, players, umpires) | Most player-of-the-match awards | ESPNcricinfo

Find records of Most player-of-the-match awards in ODI matches only on ESPNcricinfo.

www.espncricinfo.com

How much of that is because Pakistan was a better team than India during much of this time period, and therefore won more matches

 

[ma1978]

Lol of course it's a question which is why Imran is edging him out in votes.

Imran had one major injury, his shin, that cost him two years of bowling and 14 games otherwise his WPM would be even more. It's not like Botham who had injuries in between and then declined as a result.

The entire pro-Kapil argument hinges on ignoring how good a bowler Imran was throughout the 80s. I have yet to see a convincing case made for Kapil as a better bowler.

It should be freaking obvious Imran was better as a bowler, he has 8 years in a row averaging sub-25, he took as many four-fers in 50 less games than Kapil, Imran was a 22/23 averaging worldclass bowler for like 75 percent of his career, whereas Kapil didn't really go below 25 at any point in his career, and Imran in WCs was much superior too.

If its so obvious, how come their career stats are almost exactly in line, with Kapil having done much more of the same performance.

 

[ankitj]

Oh and apart from scores of 0, 8 and "did not bat", Imran was not out in 10 out of 13 MoM games. Were his red inks really useless?

 

[ankitj]

How much of that is because Pakistan was a better team than India during much of this time period, and therefore won more matches

That also means you have more competitors in your team for MoM awards. It neutralizes. I don't think strength of your team makes a difference.

 

[subshakerz]

If its so obvious, how come their career stats are almost exactly in line, with Kapil having done much more of the same performance.

Because Imran's bowling fell away in the last three years moreso than Kapil's. Even then he ended up with marginally better stats. Doesn't change the fact that he was consistently better for a majority of their careers. Review their 80s years when they were in their respective primes and compare.

 

[trundler]

All of those things - durability, injuries - speak to value. I can possibly accept that Imran was a better ODI cricketer on the talent, although this is arguable. There’s no question though that Kapil was more valuable over the course of their careers.

Yet here I am questioning it. By every useful metric except ER Imran is better.

 

[ma1978]

Because Imran's bowling fell away in the last three years moreso than Kapil's. Even then he ended up with marginally better stats. Doesn't change the fact that he was consistently better for a majority of their careers. Review their 80s years when they were in their respective primes and compare.

So? Those three years count

 

[ma1978]

Yet here I am questioning it. By every useful metric except ER Imran is better.

The differences are statistically insignificant and completely outweighted by how much more Kapil did

 

[trundler]

The differences are statistically insignificant and completely outweighted by how much more Kapil did

No they're not. Unless you think Jimmy Anderson is a greater bowler than Dale Steyn.

So? Those three years count

They somewhat bridge the gap in bowling but put Imran far ahead as a batsman. And Kapil averaged 18 with the bat after 1988 so the argument that Imran's batting AR era shouldn't count doesn't hold any weight either.

They're close as bowlers but Kapil is an insanely overrated batsman imo.