Kapil Dev vs Imran Khan

[ma1978]

No. Imran was pretty much a Waqar level pacer until his last few years while Kapil was not.


Kapil wasn't a finisher by any stretch, not with that average. Again, no spike in SR can account for a 10 point average difference with Imran.

Kapil wouldn't be in a team for batting alone in his era. Imran could. Kapil could afford to slog and hit and then get out cheaply while maintaining his high SR because of his bowling ability like Afridi which gave him a place in the side.

Imran actually took the next step and made himself into a proper middle order bat and instead of giving him credit you are demeriting him.

Imran in the 80s averaged 22 with the ball and 33 with the bat.

Kapil in the 80s averaged 26 with the ball and bat, and even by 80s standards that would be not a proper bat nor a worldclass bowler.

Then how bad was Imran for the rest of his career in bowling to get his averages up?

and a 26 bat at a 100 sr is absolutely worth more than a 33 bat with a 70 sr

 

[subshakerz]

and a 26 bat at a 100 sr is absolutely worth more than a 33 bat with a 70 sr

Maybe but a 22 averaging worldclass pacer and 33 bat with 70sr is worth more than a 26 averaging AR with a high SR.

 

[Pap Finn Keighl]

Imran in the 80s averaged 22 with the ball and 33 with the bat.

Kapil in the 80s averaged 26 with the ball and bat, and even by 80s standards that would be not a proper bat nor a worldclass bowler.

Thats averages.. In reality Imran was averaging 24 runs per match.. Thats not Specialist class. And even theses stats were skewed as he improved his batting only towards the end of 80s.

Kapil averaged 28 at 105 with bat and 26 with ball for a decade.

 

[trundler]

Thats averages.. In reality Imran was averaging 24 runs per match.. Thats not Specialist class. And even theses stats were skewed as he improved his batting only towards the end of 80s.

Kapil averaged 28 at 105 with bat and 26 with ball for a decade.

Kapil averaged <20 runs per match though. And Imran was good enough to bat up the order. His average and strike rate are better than Border's. Even if we ignore averages, Imran is several levels above Kapil as an ODI batsmen. Kapil's batting is stupidly overrated. He averaged 23 for a reason. Imran has a better WC record, won a WC and was MOTM in Nehru Cup final for all round brilliance so it's not like Kapil outdoes him on impact either. Kapil can be considered a better finisher but in no way is he a better batsman.

 

[ma1978]

Maybe but a 22 averaging worldclass pacer and 33 bat with 70sr is worth more than a 26 averaging AR with a high SR.

this is completely subjective and Idon’t agree (hence my vote)

 

[Pap Finn Keighl]

Kapil averaged <20 runs per match though. And Imran was good enough to bat up the order. His average and strike rate are better than Border's. Even if we ignore averages, Imran is several levels above Kapil as an ODI batsmen. Kapil's batting is stupidly overrated. He averaged 23 for a reason. Imran has a better WC record, won a WC and was MOTM in Nehru Cup final for all round brilliance so it's not like Kapil outdoes him on impact either. Kapil can be considered a better finisher but in no way is he a better batsman.

Until 1988
Imran averaged 29 at 72
Kapil averaged 29 at 105

If anybody is several levels above.. Its Kapil Dev.

Imran's avg is boosted by not outs and last few years performances

 

[trundler]

Until 1988
Imran averaged 29 at 72
Kapil averaged 29 at 105

If anybody is several levels above.. Its Kapil Dev.

Imran's avg is boosted by not outs and last few years performances

Imran got much much better and Kapil got worse. Kapil batted lower down the order and had less runs per match so had the boosted average if anything over their careers. Nothing can bridge a 11 run average gap when Imran had a significantly above par SR himself considering the era.

I'm taking the guy with the better averages, more 50s, equal number of 4fers and better WC record any day.

 

[ma1978]

Imran got much much better and Kapil got worse. Kapil batted lower down the order and had less runs per match so had the boosted average if anything over their careers. Nothing can bridge a 11 run average gap when Imran had a significantly above par SR himself considering the era.

I'm taking the guy with the better averages, more 50s, equal number of 4fers and better WC record any day.

and Imran became a worse bowler

 

[trundler]

and Imran became a worse bowler

Post 1988 Imran's record is Stokes-like and Kapil's is comparable to Afridi. I know who I'm taking again.

 

[ma1978]

Let’s not cherry pick dates

over the course of their careers, Kapil has a menaingfully more valuable bowling record (similar averages and ERs but over a much longer period of team.

min batting, the difference in averages / SRs is basically Sehwag vs Kallis, and I know who I would take. Again, Kapil played many more matches

 

[trundler]

Imran has a significantly better bowling record in WCs. And characterising Imran's SR as Kallis level is extremely unfair and dishonest. Imran has a ~10% better strike rate than what was par during their careers. Kallis's was marginally below par. You have to pretend Imran was Boycott to make a case for Kapil as a batsman which is plainly untrue. And someone mentioned Kapil's record against quality opposition as a point in his favour when Imran again averages nearly 10 more with the bat against WI with an equal bowling record.

 

[ma1978]

Imran has a significantly better bowling record in WCs. And characterising Imran's SR as Kallis level is extremely unfair and dishonest. Imran has a ~10% better strike rate than what was par during their careers. Kallis's was marginally below par. You have to pretend Imran was Boycott to make a case for Kapil as a batsman which is plainly untrue. And someone mentioned Kapil's record against quality opposition as a point in his favour when Imran again averages nearly 10 more with the bat against WI with an equal bowling record.

the relative difference to average for Kallis and Sehwag is the same as Kapil and Imran

 

[trundler]

the relative difference to average for Kallis and Sehwag is the same as Kapil and Imran

Which is misleading for reasons I explained. And we're not comparing 2 guys with similar roles, we're comparing a lower order biffer with someone who was good enough to bat in the top middle order.

I can understand the argument that averages can't be misleading and you can't compare lower order averages to top order averages. Klusener isn't as good Ponting. But on the one hand you're discounting average because Imran has more not-outs (despite batting higher generally) and ignoring that he also has a much higher RPM because he batted higher. If Imran had a Vettori in tests record with the bat and Kapil had better output, this would make sense but really you're rewarding Kapil for 6 and out innings which is baffling. Imran"s batting output is higher and at a very good strike rate for the era. Kapil's batting output is low but he has an insane strike rate. There's definitely a minimum threshold for output beyond which SR comes into play and vice versa for output and strike rate. Both Moeen Ali and Dipennar are underwhelming batsmen. But Imran has a better record than Border with the bat and even if you discount averages, much higher output than Kapil, all at a very good SR whereas Kapil has an underwhelming average at an exceptional strike rate. It's not close.

 

[ma1978]

Not that ICC rankings are everything, but Kapil peak ranked as the number 1 ODI bowler and the 6 ODI batsman. Imran peaked as the number 4 bowler and the number 11 batsman. Kapil was consistently ranked higher and had a much longer career. This is close but not that close.

 

[The Sean]

There’s an easy answer to that - it depends on whether you like said player or not

Yeah, I think this really is Jadeja.

 

[subshakerz]

and Imran became a worse bowler

So did Kapil towards the end.

 

[subshakerz]

None of the Kapil supporters here are using their cherry picking ability in Imran favor because they know he will look better.

The only one you can pick without having to ignore huge part of his career is Imran

 

[Prince EWS]

9-9.

I think that's fair. Really hard to compare IMO.

I've gone with Kapil in the end because as a general rule I do think bowling allrounders are more useful boshing sixes at 7 than if you have to bat them higher to build an innings - the latter can require you to end up with a specialist bat at 7 which is a tough role to lock down. Trying to pick Flintoff in an AT World XI for example gets really challenging.

 

[subshakerz]

9-9.

I think that's fair. Really hard to compare IMO.

I've gone with Kapil in the end because as a general rule I do think bowling allrounders are more useful boshing sixes at 7 than if you have to bat them higher to build an innings - the latter can require you to end up with a specialist bat at 7 which is a tough role to lock down. Trying to pick Flintoff in an AT World XI for example gets really challenging.

That logic makes sense is you are putting a ATG XI together, though I am not sure why you would want Kapil over Imran as a bowler personally.

But Imran was a batting specialist at 5/6 but the point is in a regular team of his era you wouldn't need an extra bat and hence can afford an extra bowler or extra allrounder. Therefore Imran is objectively a better ODI player adding more value to a side.

 

[Fuller Pilch]

Chris Harris was better than both of them - Jonty in the field, Larsen with the ball, and Fairbrother with the bat.

Larsen averaged 38.5 with the bat against Australia - the GOAT ODI team. That's the equivalent of Imran and Kapil averaging 43.5 against the Windies (the 2nd best ODI team).