Steve Smith vs Brian Lara

[The_CricketUmpire]

Another amazing fact is the few not outs he has. He has the lowest proportion of not outs for a top 5 batsman and still managed to average 53. And that's with just 4 tests vs minnows. And no other batsman carried their teams batting more than Lara with the exception of Bradman and Headley.

Yeah true, but the stats I produced is worth talking about.

 

[The_CricketUmpire]

We also both agree that both Sachin and Smith were marginally better than Lara. Where I disagree with you, is when you say things like Lara performed worst vs the great fast bowlers of the 90s when that's patently not true. Sachin scored hundreds and looked more assured than Lara vs the Ws and Donald but at the end of the day, they still averaged around the same. And in the case of Donald, they literally played the same number of innings and got dismissing by him and identical number of times (5 vs 6). I didn't mention McGrath because you/we already agreed that Lara was better vs him.

I have Lara ahead of Tendulkar and Smith slightly. Recency bias is alive and well.

 

[subshakerz]

We also both agree that both Sachin and Smith were marginally better than Lara. Where I disagree with you, is when you say things like Lara performed worst vs the great fast bowlers of the 90s when that's patently not true. Sachin scored hundreds and looked more assured than Lara vs the Ws and Donald but at the end of the day, they still averaged around the same. And in the case of Donald, they literally played the same number of innings and got dismissing by him and identical number of times (5 vs 6). I didn't mention McGrath because you/we already agreed that Lara was better vs him.

Did I say performed worse or struggled? Because they aren't the exact same. Obviously if one batsman looks more at ease against pacers than the other that matters to me along with who takes his wicket, and the series contexts.

Though getting out more to them could be seen as performing worse, and Lara did get out more to Donald and the 2Ws, usually over the course of a series in which they have his number, but we can agree to disagree on that. If they score similar runs against Pakistan but Sachin is getting out to Saqlain it doesn't really tell me that he performed as poorly against Wasim.

 

[The_CricketUmpire]

Test cricket
Donald dismissed Lara 6 times
Younis dismissed Lara 3 times
Akram dismissed Lara 2 times

Reference

Brian Lara - Analysis of Batting Dismissals - Test Cricket

Test Cricket - Analysis of dismissals as batsman, how out, dismissing bowler

www.howstat.com

 

[honestbharani]

Sachin was better.

Nope

 

[honestbharani]

Lara > Sachin > Smith.

 

[PlayerComparisons]

Wasn’t aware of Lara’s record against ATG pacers. Guess he wasn’t as good as Sachin and Smith.

 

[subshakerz]

Nope

I think Lara ahead of Sachin is a perfectly respectable opinion even if I disagree. Do you believe the opposite is true?

 

[subshakerz]

Test cricket
Donald dismissed Lara 6 times
Younis dismissed Lara 3 times
Akram dismissed Lara 2 times

Reference

Brian Lara - Analysis of Batting Dismissals - Test Cricket

Test Cricket - Analysis of dismissals as batsman, how out, dismissing bowler

www.howstat.com

And to compare, Tendulkar fell to Donald 5 times, Waqar once and Akram once.

 

[_00_deathscar]

We also both agree that both Sachin and Smith were marginally better than Lara. Where I disagree with you, is when you say things like Lara performed worst vs the great fast bowlers of the 90s when that's patently not true. Sachin scored hundreds and looked more assured than Lara vs the Ws and Donald but at the end of the day, they still averaged around the same. And in the case of Donald, they literally played the same number of innings and got dismissing by him and identical number of times (5 vs 6). I didn't mention McGrath because you/we already agreed that Lara was better vs him.

Not sure if stats bear it out, but isn’t the argument for Sachin with pace bowlers that he scored vs the Windies, and against a rampaging Steyn?

 

[Slifer]

Not sure if stats bear it out, but isn’t the argument for Sachin with pace bowlers that he scored vs the Windies, and against a rampaging Steyn?

Those would be arguments for Sachin but only in isolation. I wouldn't use it in a direct comparison to Lara. Because Lara never faced Steyn and Lara couldn't have faced his own attack. And even as far as Steyn is concerned, one Steyn with no other great does not a great attack make. Sachin did make runs in 1997 in WI vs Ambrose and Walsh though. Respect to him for that.

 

[The_CricketUmpire]

And to compare, Tendulkar fell to Donald 5 times, Waqar once and Akram once.

Splitting hairs.

 

[subshakerz]

Those would be arguments for Sachin but only in isolation. I wouldn't use it in a direct comparison to Lara. Because Lara never faced Steyn and Lara couldn't have faced his own attack. And even as far as Steyn is concerned, one Steyn with no other great does not a great attack make. Sachin did make runs in 1997 in WI vs Ambrose and Walsh though. Respect to him for that.

I think if you include WI and Steyn, you can make an argument that Sachin had an overall slightly better record against ATG pacers than Lara in the final analysis, because the only worldclass pacer Lara has a good record against is McGrath.

 

[Slifer]

I think if you include WI and Steyn, you can make an argument that Sachin had an overall slightly better record against ATG pacers than Lara in the final analysis, because the only worldclass pacer Lara has a good record against is McGrath.

And the only world class fast bowlers Sachin has a good record against are Steyn and Ambrose neither of which Lara faced so that's not exactly fair. The best analysis is to use bowlers they both faced: Wasim, Waqar, McGrath, Pollock, Donald. Those are the atg fast bowlers they both faced in common and in the more difficult 90s. Evens Stevens results wise if you ask me.

 

[subshakerz]

And the only world class fast bowlers Sachin has a good record against are Steyn and Ambrose neither of which Lara faced so that's not exactly fair. The best analysis is to use bowlers they both faced: Wasim, Waqar, McGrath, Pollock, Donald. Those are the atg fast bowlers they both faced in common and in the more difficult 90s. Evens Stevens results wise if you ask me.

No, you judge them based on who they faced rather than ignore records.

When it comes to ATG pacers, Tendulkar was good against McGrath, Ambrose and Steyn and was middling against Donald, Wasim and Waqar.

Lara was better than Tendulkar against McGrath and middling against Donald, Wasim and Waqar.

We don't have to talk about who was better against pace but objectively you would take Tendulkar's record over Lara's as better proven against quality pacers, granted he had more opportunities but then that goes to his longevity.

 

[sledger]

Lara much nicer to watch.

 

[subshakerz]

Lara much nicer to watch.

No doubt.

 

[Slifer]

No, you judge them based on who they faced rather than ignore records.

When it comes to ATG pacers, Tendulkar was good against McGrath, Ambrose and Steyn and was middling against Donald, Wasim and Waqar.

Lara was better than Tendulkar against McGrath and middling against Donald, Wasim and Waqar.

We don't have to talk about who was better against pace but objectively you would take Tendulkar's record over Lara's as better proven against quality pacers, granted he had more opportunities but then that goes to his longevity.

Not true but whatever. Sachin is rated higher by you me and most pundits. We agree on that. Moving on....

 

[subshakerz]

Smith is the BBB, unless he messes up in some way which puts into question his whole approach to being this dominant, which yes it would be possible to have happen.

Has he messed up?

 

[shortpitched713]

Has he messed up?

I don't know, kind of. He's also switching to opening at a similar time in which he is losing form. I'm going to withhold further judgement until his career finishes, but I certainly think he's moved himself back into the pack of other BBB contenders.