Steve Smith vs Brian Lara

[subshakerz]

Lara.
He was a rarified genius.

Yup. Doesn't make him a better cricketer though.

 

[BazBall21]

Smith hasn't faced as many ATGs as Lara but he's faced strong attacks in England, India, New Zealand, South Africa and conquered each of them. Lara wasn't great in England and New Zealand. And against great bowlers, he was a lot better at home than away.

He won't have enough longevity to be called an ATG but the version of Bumrah that Smith faced was a great bowler too. Better than Rabada who you included.

 

[subshakerz]

Smith hasn't faced as many ATGs as Lara but he's faced strong attacks in England, India, New Zealand, South Africa and conquered each of them. Lara wasn't great in England and New Zealand. And against great bowlers, he was a lot better at home than away.

He won't have enough longevity to be called an ATG but the version of Bumrah that Smith faced was a great bowler too. Better than Rabada who you included.

Bumrah wasn't at full fitness in 2020/21.

 

[The_CricketUmpire]

Yup. Doesn't make him a better cricketer though.

That can be debated.

 

[subshakerz]

That can be debated.

Genuises play in a way that other greats cannot. But we ultimately judge them by their record.

 

[honestbharani]

When you base your opinion on "seen", do you mean eye test or aesthetics? That would never do justice to Steve Smith.

I base my opinion on the fact that I think Lara would be able to score more runs consistently everywhere against all types of bowlers.

 

[subshakerz]

I base my opinion on the fact that I think Lara would be able to score more runs consistently everywhere against all types of bowlers.

I think you are confusing him for Tendulkar.

 

[honestbharani]

I think you are confusing him for Tendulkar.

I think you are confusing cricket for some other sport.

 

[The_CricketUmpire]

Genuises play in a way that other greats cannot. But we ultimately judge them by their record.

It's best to use the eye test as well as stats etc when forming opinions about players.

 

[subshakerz]

It's best to use the eye test as well as stats etc when forming opinions about players.

I use stats, eye test and peer rating.

 

[_00_deathscar]

For you, my man, you'll get the sneak peak at the whole spreadsheet.

Answering your question directly, Lara > Gavaskar > Hayden, is how it would go in my mind.

If inconsistency is the reason you don’t rate Sachin that highly, how do you rate the guy that most consider marginally worse than him, many consider him the equal, and some consider him marginally better - a player who was most certainly less consistent - as better than him?

 

[Slifer]

I think you are confusing him for Tendulkar.

Smh....

 

[Patience and Accuracy+Gut]

Really? Why.

Lara at his absolute best would be up there with Stan McCabe as the best ever but Smith is a better, more consistent run-scorer

 

[subshakerz]

Lara at his absolute best would still struggle against Wasim, Waqar and Donald IMO. He had limits.

 

[OverratedSanity]

Smith's peak was from 2014 to 2019. The rise in pace standards was from 2018 onwards.

Most of Smith's peak was against goodish attacks and scoring heavily at home. The only exception was SA which had worldclass pacers in this time.

Smith had two big away series against ATG level opposition in Steyn/Philander/Morkel in 2014 and Ashwin/Jadeja (who are ATG level in India) in 2017.

Lara did face more atg level bowlers in terms of the sheer count but Smith has arguably has had just as much success against difficult attacks tbh. Lara was sporadically impressive but inconsistent against Donald/two Ws.

 

[subshakerz]

Smith had two big away series against ATG level opposition in Steyn/Philander/Morkel in 2014 and Ashwin/Jadeja (who are ATG level in India) in 2017.

Lara did face more atg level bowlers in terms of the sheer count but Smith has arguably has had just as much success against difficult attacks tbh. Lara was sporadically impressive but inconsistent against Donald/two Ws.

Yeah my sense is Smith would do better against more ATGs had he faced them than Lara.

 

[honestbharani]

Yeah my sense is Smith would do better against more ATGs had he faced them than Lara.

solidest proof yet that Lara > Smith

 

[Slifer]

Lara at his absolute best would still struggle against Wasim, Waqar and Donald IMO. He had limits.

He was not unique here as we've discussed at length. Sachin struggled just as much vs said bowlers unless you can prove otherwise.

And Lara never faced Donald at his absolute best. He faced Donald in '98 when he was already in the middle of his slump brought on by a myriad of reasons. He faced the Ws in that same period. (96-2001).

Lara's peak was from about 1992 to 1996. The one time he faced Ws, he averaged 43, which is more than his chief rival ever managed against them.

 

[Slifer]

Specifically for Subs:

Batting records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo.com

stats.espncricinfo.com

Batting records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo.com

stats.espncricinfo.com

 

[subshakerz]

He was not unique here as we've discussed at length. Sachin struggled just as much vs said bowlers unless you can prove otherwise.

No, having watched Tendulkar during his career, it is clear that Tendulkar didn't struggle against them. He just didn't thrive against them. Whereas Lara clearly had issues facing certain pacers in particular series. We don't need to rehash it.

And Lara never faced Donald at his absolute best. He faced Donald in '98 when he was already in the middle of his slump brought on by a myriad of reasons. He faced the Ws in that same period. (96-2001).

Lara's peak was from about 1992 to 1996. The one time he faced Ws, he averaged 43, which is more than his chief rival ever managed against them.

Injuries are an excuse but poor form is no excuse. And it is a chicken and egg, was he in poor form because of facing these guys, or did poor form stop him from scoring against them.

Specifically for Subs:

Batting records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo.com

stats.espncricinfo.com

Batting records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo.com

stats.espncricinfo.com

Yes but these overall averages are misleading. For example, Tendulkar didn't get out to the 2Ws at all when he faced them in the late 90s. He never had a series where he consistently struggled against these pacers like Lara did against the 2W in 97, McGrath in 96 and Donald in 98.

Tendulkar can be blamed for not prospering more against them though, but having watched him, he didn't struggle against them particularly. Lara had more problems.