Kapil Dev vs Imran Khan

[subshakerz]

You are the one who consistently call out impact related performances in literally every thread here. Do you remember any impact Imran had during this period ? Nehru Trophy at the fag end of this period, probably yes.

I call for impact performances for comparing cricketers with similar records. It doesnt matter if one is just another level in terms of record. You can't ignore a 10 point difference in batting average which clearly indicates one is a superior bat.

Meh, just 29 matches and less than one wicket per match. And as OS has pointed out, nothing much in batting either. Most misleading stat ever unless you dig deep into it.

Some of those games Imran was playing as a pure bat, hence the lesser wickets. By the way, Kapil has a grand total of seven 50 plus scores in his peak and you are poking holes at Imran's.

Anyways, can you tell me why 4 years out of 15 year career make Kapil a better player? Do we just ignore the rest of his career?

A good innings but Akram won it. His innings in the semifinal would have lost the match for Pakistan but Inzi saved the day. Also, Imran was probably the worst bowler in that final.
I give it to you though that Imran was the better bowler overall in WCs.

Jeez, Imran topscored in a WC final with a innings that set the game for Pakistan. Highly doubt Kapil was capable of promoting himself to no.3 at any point in his career.

Imran averaged 35 with the bat and 19 with the ball in WCs. There is no comparison with Kapil, he is far ahead.

There is also his performance by the way in the WC87 semi:

PAK vs AUS Cricket Scorecard, 1st Semi-Final at Lahore, November 04, 1987

Live Cricket Scoreboard: Get Pakistan vs Australia 1st Semi-Final, cricket scorecard, Reliance World Cup 1987/88 dated November 04, 1987.

www.espncricinfo.com

 

[OverratedSanity]

Gah, I can never keep track of the ephemeral CW view as to whether not-outs do or don't inflate batting averages.

I am a well known Chanderpaul hater on CW so I have been consistent on this. Ignoring pure run/wicket production in favour of only average is a noob trap. If you're scoring fewer runs/getting fewer wickets then you've literally just contributed less. The actual value of staying not out at the end of the innings is very questionable except for situations like successful run chases .

 

[OverratedSanity]

There is also his performance by the way in the WC87 semi:

PAK vs AUS Cricket Scorecard, 1st Semi-Final at Lahore, November 04, 1987

Live Cricket Scoreboard: Get Pakistan vs Australia 1st Semi-Final, cricket scorecard, Reliance World Cup 1987/88 dated November 04, 1987.

www.espncricinfo.com

This looks like a great bowling spell but seems to have been a tuktuk innings that put his lower order in trouble.

Tbf, I've always thought Kapils batting in odis was overrated anyway. I voted for him because he didn't spend his entire wc winning speech talking about a cancer hospital.

 

[subshakerz]

This looks like a great bowling spell but seems to have been a tuktuk innings that put his lower order in trouble.

Tbf, I've always thought Kapils batting in odis was overrated anyway. I voted for him because he didn't spend his entire wc winning speech talking about a cancer hospital.

Here is that spell. Check the last wicket, the wicket is still knocked around as the batsmen is leaving.

As for the knock, you are being uncharitable. Pakistan lost three early wickets and he had to rebuild with Javed. Pretty much the MO of the era.

 

[h_hurricane]

I call for impact performances for comparing cricketers with similar records. It doesnt matter if one is just another level in terms of record. You can't ignore a 10 point difference in batting average which clearly indicates one is a superior bat.

And what about the 23 run difference in SR which gives Kapil arguably the best era adjusted SR of all time.

Imran is probably a 6/10 as a top order bat and 7/10 as a lower order one. Kapil was a 9/10 as lower order. Imran was more versatile but Kapil was better at what he was good in.

Some of those games Imran was playing as a pure bat, hence the lesser wickets. Anyways, can you tell me why 4 years out of 15 year career make Kapil a better player? Do we just ignore the rest of his career?

Well, I just used the peak criteria here, as Kapil played way more matches than Imran. Never did I say it should be adopted by any one else. Peak Kapil was probably the most complete all round package in ODI history, though it could be argued that a few others can be right up there too.

Impact - WC 1983, WCC 1985
Bowling average - very good for the era.
Bowling ER - very good for the era
Batting average - good for a lower order player in that era
Batting SR - insane for the era

Jeez, Imran topscored in a WC final with a innings that set the game for Pakistan. Highly doubt Kapil was capable of promoting himself to no.3 at any point in his career.

Imran averaged 35 with the bat and 19 with the ball in WCs. There is no comparison with Kapil, he is far ahead.

There is also his performance by the way in the WC87 semi:

PAK vs AUS Cricket Scorecard, 1st Semi-Final at Lahore, November 04, 1987

Live Cricket Scoreboard: Get Pakistan vs Australia 1st Semi-Final, cricket scorecard, Reliance World Cup 1987/88 dated November 04, 1987.

www.espncricinfo.com

He doesn't need to, when he excelled in lower order roles. Even in 1992 WC, there were several breezy knocks from him down the order.

I already agreed that Imran was the better WC bowler, though his batting average is misleading. His knock in 1992 WC SF was one of the worst ever for a top order batsman.

 

[h_hurricane]

Gah, I can never keep track of the ephemeral CW view as to whether not-outs do or don't inflate batting averages.

Imo, not outs don't inflate batting averages for a player as long as the run output and the impact on the game isn't diminished when compared to another player with lesser not outs. Certainly needs to be taken on a case to case basis when comparing two players.

 

[Pap Finn Keighl]

Kapil Dev

Ranked number 1 allrounder for almost 10 years
Wisden's ODI cricketer of the decade 1980s.
World record breaker in both disciplines.

 

[subshakerz]

And what about the 23 run difference in SR which gives Kapil arguably the best era adjusted SR of all time.

Imran is probably a 6/10 as a top order bat and 7/10 as a lower order one. Kapil was a 9/10 as lower order. Imran was more versatile but Kapil was better at what he was good in.

A few points:

- More runs up the order to build an innings are worth more than quicker but less runs down the order. When it comes to 10 point average difference, output matters more than SR.

- Kapil actually spent a fair about of time batting 5/6 but at virtually every position, is averaging 5 to 15 runs less than Imran. Interestingly, Imran batting at 7/8 has his SR also go in the 80/90 SR range, showing he was perfectly capable of blasting it when he needed to.

- Imran's versatility means a lot more to any team. If you have a worldclass bowler capable of occupying a top 6 spot without any damage to runs, that is simply more valuable than a late order cameo hitter

He doesn't need to, when he excelled in lower order roles. Even in 1992 WC, there were several breezy knocks from him down the order.

I already agreed that Imran was the better WC bowler, though his batting average is misleading. His knock in 1992 WC SF was one of the worst ever for a top order batsman.

Imran is a better bowler, period. In fact, the gap in bowling standards should make the batting comparison moot.

 

[_00_deathscar]

Gah, I can never keep track of the ephemeral CW view as to whether not-outs do or don't inflate batting averages.

There’s an easy answer to that - it depends on whether you like said player or not

 

[h_hurricane]

A few points:

- More runs up the order to build an innings are worth more than quicker but less runs down the order. When it comes to 10 point average difference, output matters more than SR.

- Kapil actually spent a fair about of time batting 5/6 but at virtually every position, is averaging 5 to 15 runs less than Imran. Interestingly, Imran batting at 7/8 has his SR also go in the 80/90 SR range, showing he was perfectly capable of blasting it when he needed to.

- Imran's versatility means a lot more to any team. If you have a worldclass bowler capable of occupying a top 6 spot without any damage to runs, that is simply more valuable than a late order cameo hitter

Kapil was possibly the best late order hitter in ODI history. If not absolutely the best, he is unarguably in the top 5. Imran on the other hand is neither in the top 10 lower order batsmen in history nor in the top 50 top order batsmen in history.

Strange that this is coming from you when you always rated elite specialists in one role over players who nearly make it in two roles.

Imran is a better bowler, period. In fact, the gap in bowling standards should make the batting comparison moot.

Lol no. 253 wickets at 27.4 vs 182 wickets at 26.6. Kapil has a better ER as well.

Imran only took 70% of Kapil's overall wickets.

 

[subshakerz]

To be fair to Kapil, I would say the comparison between Imran and Kapil is closer if we just take the 80s, though Imran is still ahead.

The last three years of both of their careers, their bowling fell away, but Imran's batting was still good while Kapil's was mediocre.

 

[honestbharani]

To be fair to Kapil

 

[subshakerz]

Kapil was possibly the best late order hitter in ODI history. If not absolutely the best, he is unarguably in the top 5. Imran on the other hand is neither in the top 10 lower order batsmen in history nor in the top 50 top order batsmen in history.

Strange that this is coming from you when you always rated elite specialists in one role over players who nearly make it in two roles.

First, Kapil wasn't just a late order hitter, he frequently batted at 5/6 but still couldnt even average 30 in a regular bat position. You have plenty of bats better than him there.

Second, you are vastly overestimating the impact an early 20s hitter has compared to a more consistent mid-30s bat. Trust me as someone who watched Afridi's entire career. For every cameo you get 2-3 crap knocks with loose shots.

Regular bats are more important than cameo hitters. You are ignoring that with Imran in an 80s team, you can effectively replace one of your middle order bats while still having a worldclass fast bowler. You can't do that with Kapil.

Lol no. 253 wickets at 27.4 vs 182 wickets at 26.6. Kapil has a better ER as well.

Imran only took 70% of Kapil's overall wickets.

None of this shows Kapil is better. Imran's record until his last few years was worldclass.

 

[Pap Finn Keighl]

Kapil was a part time viv Richards with bat, capable of destroying any bowling attack, capable of scoring 175 without much support from the other end..
He is the one to be feared at any point of match situation.

 

[ma1978]

There were several players who could play Imran Khan’s role in the batting lineup (Pakistan had a lot of capable MO bats).

No one in the world could do what Kapil was doing in the 80s in terms of destructive lower order hitting

 

[subshakerz]

Kapil was a part time viv Richards with bat, capable of destroying any bowling attack, capable of scoring 175 without much support from the other end..
He is the one to be feared at any point of match situation.

Yeah but with half the average.

There were several players who could play Imran Khan’s role in the batting lineup (Pakistan had a lot of capable MO bats).

No one in the world could do what Kapil was doing in the 80s in terms of destructive lower order hitting

Again, you just don't want to give Imran his due. It is a far bigger achievement to be a worldclass fast bowler and a proper middle order bat than a good pacer plus late order Afridi.

Kapil averaging 23 isn't going to destroy to set the world on fire. For all Kapil's SR, Imran was just more consistent and adaptable, and also capable of hitting when needed.

 

[ma1978]

Yeah but with half the average.



Again, you just don't want to give Imran his due. It is a far bigger achievement to be a worldclass fast bowler and a proper middle order bat than a good pacer plus late order Afridi.

Kapil averaging 23 isn't going to destroy to set the world on fire. For all Kapil's SR, Imran was just more consistent and adaptable, and also capable of hitting when needed.

There is zero difference between the two in bowling quality except Kapil did it for longer and as such is more valuable

In ODIs a finisher is more valuable than a medium strike rate middle order bat and Kapil was the only modern finisher of his time, on an era adjusted basis closer to Klusener or Raina than Afridi

 

[subshakerz]

There is zero difference between the two in bowling quality except Kapil did it for longer and as such is more valuable

No. Imran was pretty much a Waqar level pacer until his last few years while Kapil was not.

In ODIs a finisher is more valuable than a medium strike rate middle order bat and Kapil was the only modern finisher of his time, on an era adjusted basis closer to Klusener or Raina than Afridi

Kapil wasn't a finisher by any stretch, not with that average. Again, no spike in SR can account for a 10 point average difference with Imran.

Kapil wouldn't be in a team for batting alone in his era. Imran could. Kapil could afford to slog and hit and then get out cheaply while maintaining his high SR because of his bowling ability like Afridi which gave him a place in the side.

Imran actually took the next step and made himself into a proper middle order bat and instead of giving him credit you are demeriting him.

 

[Pap Finn Keighl]

Yeah but with half the average.



Again, you just don't want to give Imran his due. It is a far bigger achievement to be a worldclass fast bowler and a proper middle order bat than a good pacer plus late order Afridi.

Kapil averaging 23 isn't going to destroy to set the world on fire. For all Kapil's SR, Imran was just more consistent and adaptable, and also capable of hitting when needed.

At what point of career Imran was world class bowler + proper middle order bat?

Kapil for the decade 80s can be labelled a world class bowler + a proper batsman

 

[subshakerz]

At what point of career Imran was world class bowler + proper middle order bat?

Kapil for the decade 80s can be labelled a world class bowler + a proper batsman

Imran in the 80s averaged 22 with the ball and 33 with the bat.

Kapil in the 80s averaged 26 with the ball and bat, and even by 80s standards that would be not a proper bat nor a worldclass bowler.