Garry Sobers vs Jacques Kallis (as bowlers)

[StephenZA]

You know I don't believe this though lol. I think Kallis was a better batsman than Sobers partly because of his tough home pitches.

Not directly aimed at you... just posted before I did...

 

[shortpitched713]

Okay, I thought Prince was speaking some agreed upon wisdoms, then he throws something as unorthodox as Kallis > Sobers as a batsman.

 

[Prince EWS]

Okay, I thought Prince was speaking some agreed upon wisdoms, then he throws something as unorthodox as Kallis > Sobers as a batsman.

Wasn't even the first time I said it in the thread

I think Kallis was the better batsman but Sobers was the better bowler.

I love having this edgy opinion tbh.

 

[shortpitched713]

I like the RIS line on the Kallis vs Sobers as bowlers comparison.

Despite being vastly different, (in their career arcs, and utilization) I'd rate them as exactly even.

Young Kallis, was a sight to behold with the ball, for mine. Late in his career, he might get tossed the ball, and favorable conditions or no, he was just rusty and out of touch with his bowling.

His career would have been shorter, if he bowled as a quick more often, but I always saw extreme potential in him, as a bowler alone.

 

[Bolo.]

Trundler saying Kallis wasn't an allrounder is dumb, but Sobers was used as a frontline bowler for his whole career while Kallis only was for the first part of it. Now he was definitely capable of that standard but they didn't need him for it and wanted him to focus more on his batting so he was used more stategically. On flat pitches Sobers bowled a lot of dry spin to keep the quicks fresh, but Kallis wasn't used much at all. This doesn't mean he wasn't a real allrounder or wasn't capable of being a frontline bowler, but it does mean his average is better than it would have been if he had to bowl harder overs more regularly.

And to bring up everyone's favourite topic, standardised averages:
Sobers - 31.04
Kallis - 32.06

Strongly disagree.

He bowled much harder overs than if he had been used as a frontline bowler. For the second half of his career nearly exclusively, and to a big extent in the first half he bowled the hardest overs in an innings- at set bats, not getting the new ball and not getting a shot at the tail. Other than a brief period in the early 2000s, he was basically only getting the ball when the others were failing, which is really not the time you want to be bowling. Would have likely been averaging 5+ less with the ball in the 1st 10 years of his career if he was picking when he bowled without regard to team requirements.

You can argue that he would have got more tired over the course of a game or career playing as a frontliner, which would have had an impact, but that wasn't his role, and a mediocre bowler isn't playing 166 tests as a frontliner.

 

[OverratedSanity]

Sobers was a proper fourth bowler over the course of his career based on his WPM and over load.

He was actually a proper first or second seamer. He bowled more overs a game than Malcom Marshall.

 

[shortpitched713]

He was actually a proper first or second seamer. He bowled more overs a game than Malcom Marshall.

How do we know how much of that was seam vs spin?

 

[OverratedSanity]

How do we know how much of that was seam vs spin?

We dont so that's a fair point. Still a huge workload though regardless of what he was bowling. Without confirming, I do think I've read that for most of his peak bowling years when he averaged 27 and picked up 4 WPM, he did bowl primarily as a seamer.

 

[shortpitched713]

Yeah his seam was at a better average than spin, is what I've been told. But, he had a meaningful workload, and performance throughout his career, and it was long. Don't imagine him doing a lot of seam stuff late in his career, for sure.

Edit: Basically, looking at scorecards, he seems to bowl more overs late in his career than early. I don't see that as being possible without heavy doses of spin.

 

[ankitj]

I have the opposite opinion. I think Kallis had a higher ceiling as a quick bowler, but just so happened to be used less in that role.

My thoughts too. And this comes down to eye test - Kallis on his own, not seen Sobers. Kallis coming on to bowl never felt like a pressure release situation and that's quite valuable for a 5th bowler.

 

[Kenneth Viljoen]

Remember Kallis the bowler had green pitches at home... and flat pitches as a batsmen at home.

It seems people pick and choose what is convenient.

 

[kyear2]

Sobers started his career as a spin bowler, batting in the lower order and was abysmal at both.
His bowling and figures greatly improved when he started bowling seam, but as PEWS pointed out, was called upon time to time to bowl the slower stuff again to cover overs to keep the others fresh.

 

[shortpitched713]

Sobers started his career as a spin bowler, batting in the lower order and was abysmal at both.

Remarkably similar to Imran in that respect, barring the spin bowling bit. Could have lost the 2 greatest allrounders of all time, if selectors decided not to show faith or allow them back in the side.

 

[Coronis]

Remarkably similar to Imran in that respect, barring the spin bowling bit. Could have lost the 2 greatest allrounders of all time, if selectors decided not to show faith or allow them back in the side.

Then Imran never becomes PM and never gets arrested.

 

[trundler]

Or shot.

 

[shortpitched713]

Thought this might be closer.

Out of curiosity, who here has seen Sobers bowl?

 

[peterhrt]

Out of curiosity, who here has seen Sobers bowl?

A few will have done. Kallis was quicker, certainly in his younger days.

Sobers enjoyed bowling as much as batting. Kallis didn't. As captain Sobers overbowled himself and sometimes batted as low as seven for a breather, which drew criticism. When county cricket took its toll his bowling declined but he still got through the overs.

During the second half of his career he usually opened the bowling in England where the ball swung more. Did so as late as 1973.

Probably just over half Sobers' Test wickets would have been in his quicker style.

 

[shortpitched713]

When county cricket took its toll his bowling declined but he still got through the overs.

How much of that was shifting more to spin as he grew older? And how much better would you say he was at pace than spin?

Finally, just as a curiosity, do you know how much of the spin stuff was wrist spin compared to what I assume was more commonly orthodox?

 

[Coronis]

How much of that was shifting more to spin as he grew older? And how much better would you say he was at pace than spin?

Finally, just as a curiosity, do you know how much of the spin stuff was wrist spin compared to what I assume was more commonly orthodox?

There was quite a good thread on Sobers’ bowling career - particularly these posts from SJS on the last page offer a great amount of info.

Celebrating Sir Garry Sobers - The Bowler

In their famous book on fast bowlers, From Larwood to Lillee, Ms Trueman and Bailey write glowingly of Sobers the bowler. Trevor Bailey, one of the most articulate of cricketer turned writers, discusses all aspects of Sobers bowling below in great detail. In many respects his unique ability to...

www.cricketweb.net

Celebrating Sir Garry Sobers - The Bowler

In their famous book on fast bowlers, From Larwood to Lillee, Ms Trueman and Bailey write glowingly of Sobers the bowler. Trevor Bailey, one of the most articulate of cricketer turned writers, discusses all aspects of Sobers bowling below in great detail. In many respects his unique ability to...

www.cricketweb.net

 

[The Sean]

Probably just over half Sobers' Test wickets would have been in his quicker style.

This surprises me, as I'd always assumed the proportion was somewhat higher than that.