Imran Khan vs Dale Steyn

[trundler]

The problem here is certain posters want to pretend Imran was crooked while all the other pacers in the 80s were saints. Do you honestly believe Hadlee and Lillee didn't pick and scratch the seam all the time?

No sir, those countries only had honest umpires like Fred Goodall and Darrell Hair.

Dude relax if you paid attention you'd see I actually didn't even vote on this head to head. What I wrote is what I assumed Kyear meant.

Then it was a response to those tenuous assumptions.

 

[kyear2]

How was Steyn less drastic?

You are penalizing Imran for lack of 'consistency and all round exceptionalism' whereas Steyn averaged 26 in NZ, 28 in Australia, 30 in SL, 31 in England and 32 in the UAE? Without minnows, the difference is even more stark.

Clearly you are not being consistent.

 

[kyear2]

How was Steyn less drastic?

You are penalizing Imran for lack of 'consistency and all round exceptionalism' whereas Steyn averaged 26 in NZ, 28 in Australia, 30 in SL, 31 in England and 32 in the UAE? Without minnows, the difference is even more stark.

Clearly you are not being consistent.

Ok, there are a couple of reasons for that, which I'm sure you're aware.

First I was replying to someone who said Imran was better than Hadlee, I was clearly showing that he just wasn't and it wasn't close or disputable.

Secondly the difference between Imran's home and away record is six runs (19.2 vs 25.75), and that includes averaging 18 in minnow Sri Lanka.
Steyn's average between his home and away record was smaller, less than half of that of Imran's, les than half....... 2.58 compared to 6.56

Thirdly, and inexplicably Imran played slightly more games away than at home, giving him larger sample sizes and more importantly opportunities to acclimitize himself to the various conditions and often played as much as twice the amount of games in the various countries that Steyn did. Conversely Steyn played way more games at home than away and never played more than 7 test vs any single country away from home. So the sample sizes vary from small to tiny and too small to make conclusive judgements.

Finally, it's acknowledged that Steyn played in a much more batsman friendly era with tougher pitches with SA being one of the few countries with fast bowling friendly pitches, that's not an opinion that's acknowledged fact, and at least two of the counties mentioned were known for where fast men went to die. That was less the case for Imran outside of India, with Pakistan coincidentally known as one of the harder places to bowl as well.

I'm being quite consistent tbh.

 

[Adorable Asshole]

Thirdly, and inexplicably Imran played slightly more games away than at home, giving him larger sample sizes and more importantly opportunities to acclimitize himself to the various conditions and often played as much as twice the amount of games in the various countries that Steyn did. Conversely Steyn played way more games at home than away and never played more than 7 test vs any single country away from home. So the sample sizes vary from small to tiny and too small to make conclusive judgements.

I voted for Steyn but this is not a point in Steyn's favour.

 

[OverratedSanity]

I looked up the numbers a while back and many of Imran's (and Steyn's tbh) overseas series (especially in places like india) had a lot of high scoring games and he usually stood out ahead of the other great bowlers who played. You have to look at averages within the context of the numbers in those series to get an idea of relative impact.

 

[The Sean]

These exact same arguments about Imran's away record seem to come up over and over again. I've posted at length a couple of times previously about Imran's away performances and the context of his overall numbers. I'm not inclined to retread old ground and repeat myself yet again but suffice it to say that in my opinion there is a lot more to Imran's away record than a simple reduction to "he averaged 25".

 

[Coronis]

These exact same arguments about Imran's away record seem to come up over and over again. I've posted at length a couple of times previously about Imran's away performances and the context of his overall numbers. I'm not inclined to retread old ground and repeat myself yet again but suffice it to say that in my opinion there is a lot more to Imran's away record than a simple reduction to "he averaged 25".

T H I R T Y
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[trundler]

I'm being quite consistent tbh

Aside from Steyn, the same thing also applies to Sobers's batting. Lara too averages 'only' 42 in Australia, 33 in India and 36 in NZ. He does not average over 50 in any country outside WI except Zimbabwe.

All of Steyn, Lara and Sobers are top tier to you so something doesn't add up.

 

[kyear2]

He is penalising Imran for a crazy home record which is even dumber.

I would like to respond specifically to this.

Pakistan was known as one of the two most difficult or challenging home conditions for fast bowlers of that era.
If you can average 19 in those conditions, home or not, you should average even less in the more favorable conditions of England and Australia, it makes no logical sense.

So to be clear, I am saying that the patriotic Pakistani umpires would have played some part in that exceptional home record and to question such a disparity, especially within the scope of those conditions, doesn't require that much. I believe that other countries did have reputations for questionable umpiring but Pakistan was universally known for being the most biased of the era.

Finally the Pakistani fast bowlers were suspected of and in various forums would have admitted to altering the condition of the ball. It wasn't a secret and it played somewhat of a role in their renowned ability to swing the older ball. The extent of that role can't be quantified and it doesn't disqualify either of them from being among the greats, but it is a factor to be taken into consideration.

 

[trundler]

I would like to respond specifically to this.

Pakistan was known as one of the two most difficult or challenging home conditions for fast bowlers of that era.
If you can average 19 in those conditions, home or not, you should average even less in the more favorable conditions of England and Australia, it makes no logical sense.

So to be clear, I am saying that the patriotic Pakistani umpires would have played some part in that exceptional home record and to question such a disparity, especially within the scope of those conditions, doesn't require that much. I believe that other countries did have reputations for questionable umpiring but Pakistan was universally known for being the most biased of the era.

Finally the Pakistani fast bowlers were suspected of and in various forums would have admitted to altering the condition of the ball. It wasn't a secret and it played somewhat of a role in their renowned ability to swing the older ball. The extent of that role can't be quantified and it doesn't disqualify either of them from being among the greats, but it is a factor to be taken into consideration.

Imran wins a series in West Indies and records potentially the greatest series performance by a pace bowler in a world without biased umpiring.

Everyone tampered the ball.

 

[Adorable Asshole]

Pakistan was known as one of the two most difficult or challenging home conditions for fast bowlers of that era.
If you can average 19 in those conditions, home or not, you should average even less in the more favorable conditions of England and Australia, it makes no logical sense.

That's nonsense. The skill required to be a good bowlers in Pakistan is a lot different from the skill required to be a good bowler in Australia and England. In Pakistan you gotta bowl fuller and at the stumps while in England you have to bowl more of a good length in the corridor of uncertainty. In Australia more of a short of good length.

So to be clear, I am saying that the patriotic Pakistani umpires would have played some part in that exceptional home record and to question such a disparity, especially within the scope of those conditions, doesn't require that much. I believe that other countries did have reputations for questionable umpiring but Pakistan was universally known for being the most biased of the era.

Finally the Pakistani fast bowlers were suspected of and in various forums would have admitted to altering the condition of the ball. It wasn't a secret and it played somewhat of a role in their renowned ability to swing the older ball. The extent of that role can't be quantified and it doesn't disqualify either of them from being among the greats, but it is a factor to be taken into consideration.

For the first, pak umpire weren't uniquely biased. Aussie umpires even in the 2000s were extremely biased. I have seen many Mcgrsth wickets given out which were not outs.

As for ball tampering everybody does that. Including Steyn's South Africa.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.da...ering-carpet-despite-damning-TV-coverage.html

There are many arguments for Steyn being greater than Imran but what you are talking is totally nonsense.

 

[kyear2]

The other home pace bowlers were still ****. Why didn't bad umpiring benefit Sarfraz Nawaz so much? When Imran took 40 wickets against India at home the next best was Kapil with 24 and no Pakistani bowler managed 20 wickets in 6 tests. Doesn't make sense for one bloke to be doing all the damage on either side. At other times, Marshall, Wasim etc did well but Imran was still more deadly. His away record before he became a batsman is virtually identical to Steyn. I think Steyn is the better bowler but there is no express bowler who took daddy hauls and had huge series tallies with a clearly better record. The reason why I think Steyn is better is that he was less injury prone in his peak and faced greater batting depth across the world but this is somewhat balanced by Imran doing better against the best team of his time.

I'm also sure you're aware that the reason Imran didn't win his team a series in West Indies is because of blatantly biased umpiring so swings and roundabouts.

I specifically said Imran is an ATG bowler and ranks just outside of the absolute top tier of top bowlers and resides somewhere 6th and the top 12 fast bowlers of all time. All ****ing time.. I specifically have said that I think the 5 above him and better and I gave the reasons. If one wants to be pedantic about it, Imran was only top tier ATG at home, so unless he's walking with his own umoires and in comparison with the ones that actually are in that tier, he doesn't quite match up.

Again, you also acknowledge, and by evidence of the poll, most rate Steyn higher than Imran. I'm not saying anything different, he's in my second tier and probably somewhere between 8 and 12 in my all time ratings, how is that sacrilegious or beyond the pale?

 

[Slifer]

Aside from Steyn, the same thing also applies to Sobers's batting. Lara too averages 'only' 42 in Australia, 33 in India and 36 in NZ. He does not average over 50 in any country outside WI except Zimbabwe.

All of Steyn, Lara and Sobers are top tier to you so something doesn't add up.

This is just as dumb. Lara and Sobers' batting have absolutely zero relevance to Imran's bowling. And if you're trolling at least get your facts right, Lara averages over 50 in SL.

 

[kyear2]

No sir, those countries only had honest umpires like Fred Goodall and Darrell Hair.

Then it was a response to those tenuous assumptions.

Of course some counties had horrible or biased umpires, I've spoken to test cricketers who spoke about Lille consistently bowling deliveries a foot over the line if not more, and not being called. Goodall was absolutely horrible and Hair was something all together different that I wouldn't even dip my toe into.

But Hadlee averaged 22 at home and 21 away, McGrath similarly 22 and 21. Imran was 19 and 25.
If you guys can't see the difference, then it's just an unwillingness to do so at this point.

 

[trundler]

This is just as dumb. Lara and Sobers' batting have absolutely zero relevance to Imran's bowling. And if you're trolling at least get your facts right, Lara averages over 50 in SL.

All 3 are in the top tier for kyer2. He said he's being consistent when he isn't. Imran's away record isn't worse than Lara or Sobers's (or Steyn's).

 

[Slifer]

All 3 are in the top tier for kyer2. He said he's being consistent when he isn't. Imran's away record isn't worse than Lara or Sobers's (or Steyn's).

Sure.

 

[HouHsiaoHsien]

Of course some counties had horrible or biased umpires, I've spoken to test cricketers who spoke about Lille consistently bowling deliveries a foot over the line if not more, and not being called. Goodall was absolutely horrible and Hair was something all together different that I wouldn't even dip my toe into.

But Hadlee averaged 22 at home and 21 away, McGrath similarly 22 and 21. Imran was 19 and 25.
If you guys can't see the difference, then it's just an unwillingness to do so at this point.

Imran for me is only marginally below Hadlee, McGrath and Marshall, and above everyone else. Imran’s overall away average can be slightly misleading. He averaged a shade over 25 in WI, but had a superb SR and 6 wickets per match, In Eng, he averages 24.6 despite playing his first two series as a player against Eng in Eng, when he was barely test level. If Sl are minnows, NZ were at their level batting wise then. So if Sl is excluded so should NZ, and Sl atleast had tougher conditions for pace bowling. Also Imran’s record I’m Aus is the most misleading of all. His last series, there he played as a batter who could bowl. So for practical purpose, this should be excluded to judge Imran the bowler in Aus. If you exclude that, as a bowler he has 41 wickets in 8 tests@27 and 25 wickets in 5 tests@21 in WSC, all against great batting lineups. He was magnificent in Aus as a bowler. His record in Ind is not that great, and even there he had a very good first series. His home away record is only inferior to the above three, and that also marginally.

 

[HouHsiaoHsien]

All 3 are in the top tier for kyer2. He said he's being consistent when he isn't. Imran's away record isn't worse than Lara or Sobers's (or Steyn's).

Imran’s away record is clearly better than Lara’s.

 

[subshakerz]

Finally, it's acknowledged that Steyn played in a much more batsman friendly era with tougher pitches with SA being one of the few countries with fast bowling friendly pitches, that's not an opinion that's acknowledged fact, and at least two of the counties mentioned were known for where fast men went to die. That was less the case for Imran outside of India, with Pakistan coincidentally known as one of the harder places to bowl as well.

I'm being quite consistent tbh.

I like how circular the argument for batting-friendly era is for Steyn btw.

Steyn should be rated so highly because he succeeded in a batting era.

When it is pointed that he actually had much higher averages across the board, then the defense is that it was a batting era.

Let us leave aside the fact that over the course of their careers, Imran almost certainly played on more batting friendly pitches than Steyn did.

 

[trundler]

Of course some counties had horrible or biased umpires, I've spoken to test cricketers who spoke about Lille consistently bowling deliveries a foot over the line if not more, and not being called. Goodall was absolutely horrible and Hair was something all together different that I wouldn't even dip my toe into.

But Hadlee averaged 22 at home and 21 away, McGrath similarly 22 and 21. Imran was 19 and 25.
If you guys can't see the difference, then it's just an unwillingness to do so at this point.

Imran averaged 24 away, same as Steyn, before he became more of a batsman. The fact that he had a better home record is a point in his favour and somewhat makes up for that marginally worse away record with a better home record. You are working backwards from "Imran's home record is too good, must discount that". Imran won his side matches with big hauls everywhere he played. If he had averaged 24 away in a James Anderson in Australia in 2021 manner, scarcely being a wicket taking threat then you'd have a point but he wasn't. His record in the West Indies is incredible even if it doesn't meet your arbitrary criteria of having a sub 24 average. In England he took a 10fer in the only positive result in '87 in a 5 test series that went 1-0, including a match where 700+ runs were scored in an innings. To not acknowledge Imran's record in England as extraordinary is shallow and the worst of analysis by checklist. Famous HTB Miandad murdered Hadlee in the same tests Imran played in NZ. There's literally no country where he wasn't great and he had an impact everywhere he played.