Imran Khan vs Dale Steyn

[kyear2]

Do you agree that almost every great bowler of the time engaged in ball tampering in some or the other, from scratching to lifting the seam?

No, I genuinely don't. I've never heard or seen references to our bowlers doing it in any way. If I'm wrong please point it out.

 

[Coronis]

But it is the same metric by which you downgrade Ashwin and Jadeja from ATG status to ATVG status.

It does seem like a lot of people (not just subz, probs myself even at points too) will use x argument against y player then ignore it for z player, since we all just choose which players we like then find the reasons to prop em up

 

[Adorable Asshole]

No, I genuinely don't. I've never heard or seen references to our bowlers doing it in any way. If I'm wrong please point it out.

Simple Google search yielded these results

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.es...ball-tampering-19-jun-1996-72501?platform=amp

Nicholas Pooran banned for four T20Is for ball-tampering

Video footage in West Indies' third ODI against Afghanistan showed him using his thumbnail to scratch the ball

www.google.com

 

[Slifer]

Simple Google search yielded these results

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.espncricinfo.com/story/wi-windies-youth-team-penalized-for-ball-tampering-19-jun-1996-72501?platform=amp

Nicholas Pooran banned for four T20Is for ball-tampering

Video footage in West Indies' third ODI against Afghanistan showed him using his thumbnail to scratch the ball

www.google.com

I think Kyear means the top tier bowlers from the past like: Walsh, Roberts, Ambrose, Marshall etc. Not the current rubbish trying to pass themselves off as international cricketers.

 

[kyear2]

They absolutely do if you're claiming to have consistency. Their away records aren't any better statistically than Imran's as a bowler. The whole ball tampering thing is supposed to be the gotcha, but objectively speaking if Imran's statistical away record is enough to keep him outside the top tier then so is Sobers only averaging 50+ in England and India.

Ok, I'll answer directly.

The ball tampering wasn't the gotcha, it was the home umpiring, sorry though that was clear.

Why did Imran average better in Pakistan than more bowler friendly environments, like England and Australia.

What did Sobers average more at home than other places such as England and Australia.

Again two points, if you want to demote Sobers, feel free, this doesn't bother me.

But explain to me how over the course of a career, you average 19 at home in unfriendly bowling conditions but 28, 24, 28, 26 and 25 literally every where else. Again, I'm not comparing him to Kapil and other less talented and established bowlers, I'm literally comparing him to Marshall, Hadlee, McGrath and to a lesser extent Steyn and Ambrose. It doesn't make logical sense, so explain to to me.

 

[trundler]

That's where you're deliberately missing my point.

I see it. It's just obtuse, shallow and inconsistent with how you yourself rate players.

I'm not anywhere saying discount Imran's home record, I'm saying take it into context, and you keep saying marginal difference between his home and away record, when it clearly not only isn't marginal, but the largest off all the bowlers he's being compared to and it's not close. So no he doesn't get extra credit for being that much better at home.

I meant the marginal difference between his and the away record of other elite ATGs. Averaging 24 away is analogous to averaging 50 away for a batsman and it's pretty much the same as Steyn considering that he delivered big performances. Imran is much better than any other bowler, home or visiting, in Pakistan during his career. You are working backwards from the fact that he can't have been good enough to average 17 there and therefore suggesting him standing out so much in his home conditions doesn't matter. Circular reason. Do you not see how that flawed?

Since you love to troll and bring West Indian players into the (totally unrelated) argument because you obviously believe I'm anti Pakistani players, which I'm not even remotely. I love Headley, he had to carry a barely capable batting lineup on his own and against multiple on and off the field challenges, even locally. Many who saw him though he was just below Bradman and the equal of Hammond etc, he never got the exposure and opportunities the other two got and had comparatively long gaps between test matches.
But I can't place him in the top tier, he didn't get to face full strength touring teams and like Pollock 22 tests, even though his was over a longer period of time, just isn't quite enough to get him there.

I wasn't trolling. I also included Steyn. Imran's away record is no worse than other cricketers whom you consider elite, therefore bringing them into the conversation to point out your inconsistency is fair. 2 of them just happen to be West Indian. The lady doth protest too much I say.

But back to the point, you have to look at circumstance and context, which you are refusing to, just to make a point.

What? You did not address any of the specifics regarding Imran's away performances. That's context.

So 1, this isn't a witch hunt vs Imran and w, I do believe he's an all time great, if I had to place him off the top of my head, probably 8th all time, that's not slandering of discounting his greatness as a bowler at all.

lol ok, he would be a consensus top 3 or 5 pick on here so this is really just praising with faint damnation.

Additionally, most players have instances when they played and wasn't test level. Marshall came into the team because of wsc if I recall correctly, Sobers started his career as a left arm spinner who batted at 8 or 9, of all his gifts and talents that was what he ended up being the absolute worst at.

Playing when raw too raw is a common enough experience. It also happened to Imran. He has a 20 year career. What is pretty specific to Imran is that he continued to be useful in an entirely different capacity and became a world class batsmen when he could no longer bowl. If he had retired in 1988, he would not have been a better bowler. Imran's batting era is irrelevant when comparing him to top bowlers because a) they did not go through that and b) it happened past the point that others had been retired. Marshall had ~13 year career including his rookie year. Imran has a 20 year career, including the batsman era. Post WSC when Imran became a top bowler until he became a batsman is almost a full ATG career by itself. No one is excluding Imran's early no rounder phase though.

And we can't discount the latter part of Imran's bowling career, because then we have to discount some of his best batting periods, which is used when discussing his overall batting average. I'm just saying that the great man had a complicated career, but he was a great man, let's just not omit some of the parts we don't like.

I never said I don't like that period. It adds to his legend. The fact that he came back as a batsman fuelled purely by willpower and massive testicular fortitude is to his credit. He still bowled some and took wickets, it's just that his role is so vastly different that it is irrelevant when comparing him to bowlers.

 

[subshakerz]

But it is the same metric by which you downgrade Ashwin and Jadeja from ATG status to ATVG status.

Not sure about Jadeja but Ashwin I don't bring average much. I bring lack of achievement in SENA.

 

[kyear2]

Bowling records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo.com

stats.espncricinfo.com

Imran literally has a better record than Richard Hadlee in NZ in tests they played together. But unfortunately Imran averaged over 24 in NZ so he must've failed. Imran was better than Hadlee in Pakistan too.

Do I think he's better than Hadlee? Nope. But you can't brush these numbers away.

If you scroll back, you'll find me standing up for Steyn's record in England and Aus also because he faced ATG batting on roads despite failing per the checklist.

So exactly what are you arguing about.

You think Hadlee is better, and from this post, I will guess you also believe Steyn may be. So what's the difference of opinion. Again I've never said Imran was anything other than great....

 

[Slifer]

Imran's difference in home and away averages is consistent for other SC bowlers and is not something sinister in itself. Please check Kapil Dev, Srinath and Vaas who all have a similar difference.

And it is an arbitrary metric to downgrade someone by.

Subs, in arguments involving Sir Curtly Ambrose, I've seen you downgrade him based solely on his supposed struggles in Asia (actually one series in '97). Overall in Asia Curtly over 6 tests averaged 22.5 and struck at 56. In Pakistan specifically. Ambrose averaged 25.2 and sr was 60. Ambrose's record in Asia statistically, is about as good as if not better than Imrans outside Pakistan, yet you've held it against Ambrose but for Imran you're saying it doesn't matter.....

 

[subshakerz]

So exactly what are you arguing about.

You think Hadlee is better, and from this post, I will guess you also believe Steyn may be. So what's the difference of opinion. Again I've never said Imran was anything other than great....

The argument is you being stricter on Imran's away record compared to Steyn's who you rank no.4 of all time.

All of us pretty much put Marshall, McGrath and Hadlee ahead of everyone.

 

[trundler]

The ball tampering wasn't the gotcha, it was the home umpiring, sorry though that was clear.

You don't address the fact that Imran has a series win in WI which be perhaps the biggest achievement by a bowler post War if the umpire's in the '88 series had been fair.

Why did Imran average better in Pakistan than more bowler friendly environments, like England and Australia.

He was much better at reversing the ball than anyone else. No one has a clue how to deal with it. Crowe was the first one to figure out how to deal with it. Being a pioneer is to Imran's credit.

Imran did NOT play in bowling friendly conditions in England. I have given you ample context to his numbers there, and just how high scoring some of those tests were but you refuse to acknowledge this. Imran played a lot as a batsman in Australia because of injuries. He will won matches there though others were better. In NZ he was literally better than Hadlee ffs and he even outbowled Marshall at home in 88. He has the best touring record of any bowler in WI then. Fact.

So exactly what are you arguing about.

You think Hadlee is better, and from this post, I will guess you also believe Steyn may be. So what's the difference of opinion. Again I've never said Imran was anything other than great....

Very shameless of you to not address the facts themselves. Imran outperformed Hadlee in NZ. Richard ****ing Hadlee. Yet you want to mark him down for his record there. These were NOT friendly conditions.

I disagree with your insinuation that he isn't on par with Steyn.

 

[trundler]

Kyear2 yet to address the fact that Imran literally won a (high scoring) series in England with ball, drew in NZ where he outperformed Hadlee, drew in WI and should've won if not for patriotic umpiring and won tests singlehandedly in Australia.

This is a better away CV than Lara and on par with Steyn.

 

[subshakerz]

Subs, in arguments involving Sir Curtly Ambrose, I've seen you downgrade him based solely on his supposed struggles in Asia (actually one series in '97). Overall in Asia Curtly over 6 tests averaged 22.5 and struck at 56. In Pakistan specifically. Ambrose averaged 25.2 and sr was 60. Ambrose's record in Asia statistically, is about as good as if not better than Imrans outside Pakistan, yet you've held it against Ambrose but for Imran you're saying it doesn't matter.....

Ambrose had one good series, one poor series and a single test in SL. None in India.

My argument is that that is not enough to consider him a success in SC, and I am not sure he would do well given more opportunities, and I prefer Imran and even Steyn over him for that reason.

 

[subshakerz]

Kyear2 yet to address the fact that Imran literally won a (high scoring) series in England with ball, drew in NZ where he outperformed Hadlee, drew in WI and should've won if not for patriotic umpiring and won tests singlehandedly in Australia.

This is a better away CV than Lara and on par with Steyn.

Kyear's take is the most raw, decontextualised overview of his career.

In the time Imran was tearing it up in Pakistan, he was touring Australia, England and WI and averaging in the teens too.

 

[kyear2]

Simple Google search yielded these results

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.espncricinfo.com/story/wi-windies-youth-team-penalized-for-ball-tampering-19-jun-1996-72501?platform=amp

Nicholas Pooran banned for four T20Is for ball-tampering

Video footage in West Indies' third ODI against Afghanistan showed him using his thumbnail to scratch the ball

www.google.com

Are you serious with this?

Do you even understand the context of the conversation?

 

[Slifer]

Ambrose had one good series, one poor series and a single test in SL. None in India.

My argument is that that is not enough to consider him a success in SC, and I am not sure he would do well given more opportunities, and I prefer Imran and even Steyn over him for that reason.

Whether or not given more opportunities he'd do worse is pure speculation. But what we do know is that in the limited tests their, overall he did fine.

But relative to the likes of Steyn and McGrath you'd say they're both better in Asia because they had better records there. They didn't, Ambrose actually averages less in Asia than both. Likewise, people believe Steyn is better than Imran because he had a better away than Imran.

Fwiw, I don't really have a dog in this fight but it's like coronis I believe mentioned, we use arguments in one argument, then completely go against those principles in another.

 

[trundler]

No, I genuinely don't. I've never heard or seen references to our bowlers doing it in any way. If I'm wrong please point it out.

West Indian bowlers of the time famously had no one object to their tactics and gamesmanship. Nobody ever accused them West Indies of unfairness and taking libraries with the rules.

 

[subshakerz]

Whether or not given more opportunities he'd do worse is pure speculation. But what we do know is that in the limited tests their, overall he did fine.

He didn't do enough IMO. I would have needed at least one series in India to show me his skill set could succeed there. Without that, my doubt remains and I will prefer those with more success in SC.

 

[Slifer]

West Indian bowlers of the time famously had no one object to their tactics and gamesmanship. Nobody ever accused them West Indies of unfairness and taking libraries with the rules.

I assume you're being sarcastic and the only thing they could be accused of was excessive bouncers but then Lillee, Sarfraz etc did the same and that was all with in the rules.

 

[trundler]

I assume you're being sarcastic and the only thing they could be accused of was excessive bouncers but then Lillee, Sarfraz etc did the same and that was all with in the rules.

Astute observation. Whatever it was, it was so significant that it made Benaud disqualify them from his list of great players completely. Let's not forget that West Indies benefited greatly from dodgy home umpiring too which seems to be the main contention here.