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Is AB de Villiers an ATG test batsman?

Is AB de Villiers an ATG test batsman?

  • Total voters
    44
B

Bolo.

International Captain
shortpitched713 said:
Eww at bolded statement. Just because the averages for either bowlers or batsmen look better in a specific timeframe, doesn't mean you suddenly have no ATGs from one period and suddenly spawn a bunch in another. That isn't down to skills, just conditions. Condition independent, ie era adjusted stats have to be looked at in my opinion.

From there, you have some which rise multiple standard deviations over the mean, and the ones that separate themselves the most are your ATGs. Technically, there doesn't have to be any in a given time, or there may be a couple at another time. However, we are looking at different ideas clearly, as I'd never state there are 5 ATGs at a given time which is what would be required for AdV to join the list. Usually there is 1 or 2 that separate themself the most, and that for me can join the ATG list.
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Conditions are part of it but there is huge variation in actual quality. WIs didn't stop producing because conditions changed. Pak didn't have it's 3 best quicks at the same time due to conditions changing. There are cultures of success and transferring of skills.

The xth best quick of the 80s/90s is still better than the second best quick of the late 2000s (or just about any other time in history), even if conditions were easier.
 
Red_Ink_Squid

Red_Ink_Squid

Global Moderator
How long do you have to have been the best in the world? De Villiers was for a while. Him and Sanga would have been the top 2 Test batsman in the world over a ~5 year stretch in the early 2010s.
 
trundler

trundler

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Red_Ink_Squid said:
How long do you have to have been the best in the world? De Villiers was for a while. Him and Sanga would have been the top 2 Test batsman in the world over a ~5 year stretch in the early 2010s.
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Clarke was the best in the world for a similar amount of time to De Villiers IMO. And YK was in the mix too so ABdV was one of 4 blokes who were up there in that period.
 
shortpitched713

shortpitched713

International Captain
shortpitched713 said:
Greg Chappell
Sunil Gavaskar
Viv Richards
Javed Miandad
Sachin Tendulkar
Brian Lara
Jacques Kallis
Kumar Sangakkara

Here's who I've got as unquestioned top 8 ATGs in my mind, from this era. Above AdV I've still got to put a bunch of Australians, Dravid, and some active players as well, just off the top of my mind.

How are you an "ATG", if there are multiple tiers ahead of you? What does ATG even mean then anymore?

Top 5-10 bats during his time, sure. But let's not water down what we mean by ATG.
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Made a similar list for ATG seam bowlers of modern (70-) era, as the conversation veered off into ATG criteria:

Richard Hadlee
Malcolm Marshall
Curtly Ambrose
Allan Donald
Glenn Mcgrath
Dale Steyn
Vernon Philander

Philander makes it over Waqar because Philander's peak (basically his whole career) lasted longer than Waqar's true peak, which is the level at which you need to perform to make it onto this list. A lot of great names just miss out for mine. Someone like Wasim, whose performances weren't always consistently that of the best bowler of his time, or a Garner who had significantly more help than a Hadlee over a shorter career end up missing out, on very fine margins.

ATG lists should inspire debate, it's not a participation trophy.
 
Last edited:
Sunil1z

Sunil1z

International Regular
According to Cricinfo database 3115 cricketers have played Test cricket. Using 1 percentile rule for ATG , let’s see

Batsman : Bradman, Hobbs, Hutton, Sachin, Gavaskar, Smith, Ponting, Chappell, Lara, Sobers, Richards, Kallis, Hammonds ,Sangakkara

Fast Bowlers: CW top 10 posted above
Wicket keeper: Gilchrist, Knott
All rounder: Botham, Pollock, Miller , Jadeja
Spinner: Murali, Warne , Grimet , O Reilly

Is it Good list ?
 
shortpitched713

shortpitched713

International Captain
Bolo. said:
The xth best quick of the 80s/90s is still better than the second best quick of the late 2000s (or just about any other time in history), even if conditions were easier.
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Define x first, but this sounds like bullshit, if I'm just being honest with you.
 
S

subshakerz

Hall of Fame Member
shortpitched713 said:
Made a similar list for ATG seam bowlers, as the conversation veered off into ATG criteria:

Richard Hadlee
Malcolm Marshall
Curtly Ambrose
Allan Donald
Glenn Mcgrath
Dale Steyn
Vernon Philander

Philander makes it over Waqar because Philander's peak (basically his whole career) lasted longer than Waqar's true peak, which is the level at which you need to perform to make it onto this list. A lot of great names just miss out for mine. Someone like Wasim, whose performances weren't always consistently that of the best bowler of his time, or a Garner who had significantly more help than a Hadlee over a shorter career end up missing out, on very fine margins.

ATG lists should inspire debate, it's not a participation trophy.
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Philander over Wasim and Lillee :)

Not really much to discuss then.
 
S

subshakerz

Hall of Fame Member
Sunil1z said:
According to Cricinfo database 3115 cricketers have played Test cricket. Using 1 percentile rule for ATG , let’s see

Batsman : Bradman, Hobbs, Hutton, Sachin, Gavaskar, Smith, Ponting, Chappell, Lara, Sobers, Richards, Kallis, Hammonds ,Sangakkara

Fast Bowlers: CW top 10 posted above
Wicket keeper: Gilchrist, Knott
All rounder: Botham, Pollock, Miller , Jadeja
Spinner: Murali, Warne , Grimet , O Reilly

Is it Good list ?
Click to expand...
Around the top 15-17 bats, top 10 pacers, 3-5 spinners, 3-5 all-rounders.
 
The Sean

The Sean

Cricketer Of The Year
shortpitched713 said:
Made a similar list for ATG seam bowlers, as the conversation veered off into ATG criteria:

Richard Hadlee
Malcolm Marshall
Curtly Ambrose
Allan Donald
Glenn Mcgrath
Dale Steyn
Vernon Philander

Philander makes it over Waqar because Philander's peak (basically his whole career) lasted longer than Waqar's true peak, which is the level at which you need to perform to make it onto this list. A lot of great names just miss out for mine. Someone like Wasim, whose performances weren't always consistently that of the best bowler of his time, or a Garner who had significantly more help than a Hadlee over a shorter career end up missing out, on very fine margins.

ATG lists should inspire debate, it's not a participation trophy.
Click to expand...
No Imran?
 
B

Bolo.

International Captain
shortpitched713 said:
Define x first, but this sounds like bull****, if I'm just being honest with you.
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Of the top 17 or so quicks ever, I can think of 4 off the top of my head who were not playing in the 80s or 90s (current players aside, as they are hard to rate with incomplete careers).
 
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