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*Official* Australia vs South Africa -2022/3

S

sphynx

U19 Debutant
The_CricketUmpire said:
My opinion - I have MacGill ahead of Lyon.
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Much the same way some would have Ryan Harris above some all time quicks, but I just think longevity counts for something.

Australia is where finger spin goes to die and for someone to take 230+ test wickets @ 31, is a fair effort when you compare that to the records of some of the greatest finger spinners of all time in Aus.
 
The_CricketUmpire

The_CricketUmpire

U19 Captain
sphynx said:
Much the same way some would have Ryan Harris above some all time quicks, but I just think longevity counts for something.

Australia is where finger spin goes to die and for someone to take 230+ test wickets @ 31, is a fair effort when you compare that to the records of some of the greatest finger spinners of all time in Aus.
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I actually have Murali, Saqlain Mishtaq and Harbhajan Singh ahead of Lyon in terms of finger spinners.....why...because they weren't as predictable as Lyon is.
 
S

sphynx

U19 Debutant
The_CricketUmpire said:
I actually have Murali, Saqlain Mishtaq and Harbhajan Singh ahead of Lyon in terms of finger spinners.....why...because they weren't as predictable as Lyon is.
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The counter argument is, Lyon has probably one of the best stock balls in history for an offspinner. He's taken this many wickets without any variations for a reason.

He gets massive amounts of natural variation from spin and bounce with his stock ball that many others have ever gotten.

None of those you listed are Australia spinners of the last 30 years, which was my initial point....

Anyway:

Murali 260 overs in Aus @ 75 w/ SR 131
Mushtaq 222 overs in Aus @ 33.6 w/ SR 60.64
Harbhajan 189 overs in Aus @ 73 w/ 123 SR

The only visiting spinner with 300+ test wickets to average under 40 in Australia is Herath (35) and Kumble (38)


As I said, Lyon has had to apply his craft in the hardest home conditions for a finger spinner and will end up in the top 7 all time test wicket takers, with perfectly respectable all-round bowling figures, which is fairly amazing.

During and Post Warne, the argument at the time was definately around whether a finger spinner could even be world class based in Australia and that Warne proved you really had to be a wrist spinner to be an absolute top line spinner in Aus. This was discussed a lot around Hauritz's time.

His record would have been phenomenal had he played the same amount of tests as those other finger spinners in Asia.
 
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Spark

Spark

Global Moderator
The_CricketUmpire said:
I actually have Murali, Saqlain Mishtaq and Harbhajan Singh ahead of Lyon in terms of finger spinners.....why...because they weren't as predictable as Lyon is.
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The first two fair enough but anyone rating Harby over Lyon at this point is flat out engaging in "this era is just arbitrarily worse just because". Like, Harbhajan was outright bad for a large stretch of his career.
 
TheJediBrah

TheJediBrah

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sphynx said:
The counter argument is, Lyon has probably one of the best stock balls in history for an offspinner. He's taken this many wickets without any variations for a reason.
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This is a very naive way to look at spin bowling. Just because balls don't spin different directions means no variations?
 
Spark

Spark

Global Moderator
I definitely think Lyon could well be the best greentop/seamy road spinner I've seen. He's taken a lot of poles, often very important poles in the first innings where games on those pitches are won and lost, on surfaces where most captains probably wouldn't even bowl their spinner.
 
H

halba

International 12th Man
Boxing day test- Boland will certainly play ahead of Hazlewood(first class average 35 at MCG) at his home ground MCG. Boland is very good at MCG and its simply too risky to play Hazlewood in case he breaks down again.
The rest of the side unchanged as normal.
 
S

sphynx

U19 Debutant
TheJediBrah said:
This is a very naive way to look at spin bowling. Just because balls don't spin different directions means no variations?
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You completely ignored my very next sentence, when I stated Lyon benefits from some of the best natural variation I've ever seen for a finger spinner given the amount of bounce he gets from his overspin.

You don't need a wrongun/arm ball with the natural variation he gets with his bounce, that much is obvious given the amount of wickets he takes.
 
TheJediBrah

TheJediBrah

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sphynx said:
You completely ignored my very next sentence, when I stated Lyon benefits from some of the best natural variation I've ever seen for a finger spinner given the amount of bounce he gets from his overspin.
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No I read it.

Variation of speed, flight and slight variations in length are just as important, if not more so than just spinning the ball a different way. Natural variation is a completely different thing and claiming that Lyon benefits from it more than most spinners is baseless IMO. Two of the spinners that have benefited from it the most that I've seen are Herath and Jadeja.

Edit: and Steve O'Keefe
 
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TheJediBrah

TheJediBrah

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Though tbf I don't think Lyon tries particularly hard to alter his speeds and trajectories but I tend to turn the tv off when his head shows up on the screen
 
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