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Meaningless and stupid cricket statistics

Starfighter

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Isn't 5 WPM generally considered one of the key criteria for distinguishing an ATG bowler from an ATVG or am I just ********
I've heard this quite a few places over the years and I don't know which nincompoop came up with it but they were clearly innumerate. If you use 5 WPM as a cutoff for bowlers with more than 200 test wickets it leaves you with a very short list: Hadlee, Lillee, Murali, Ashwin, Grimmett. Wasim, Lindwall and Walsh didn't even meet 4 WPM.
 

trundler

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I've heard this quite a few places over the years and I don't know which nincompoop came up with it but they were clearly innumerate. If you use 5 WPM as a cutoff for bowlers with more than 200 test wickets it leaves you with a very short list: Hadlee, Lillee, Murali, Ashwin, Grimmett. Waqar, Lindwall and Walsh didn't even meet 4 WPM.
Waqar has well over 4. Akram just barely misses out by 2 wickets over 104 matches though.
 

Starfighter

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
lol “yeah the other brown bloke you stupid idiot”
I was doing calculations and typed in one, changed my mind about what I was going to write and had the wrong name in. I edited it before I ever saw Trundler's post. You should pull your head in your accusations.
 

jayjay

U19 Cricketer
I was doing calculations and typed in one, changed my mind about what I was going to write and had the wrong name in. I edited it before I ever saw Trundler's post. You should pull your head in your accusations.
Be careful....be very careful.

For now, we at cricket web give you the benefit of the doubt.
 

AndrewB

International Vice-Captain
Gautam Gambhir shares the records for both "most consecutive Tests scoring 100+ runs" (7, shared with Aubrey Faulkner) and "most consecutive Tests scoring 50+ runs" (15, shared with Marnus Labuschagne).

Sangakkara is the only player to score 200+ runs in 4 consecutive Tests (only Hammond even managed it in 3), and only Bradman scored 300+ runs in consecutive Tests (the 4th and 5th Tests in the 1934 Ashes).

Hutton scored 20+ runs in 53 consecutive Tests, way ahead of anyone else (Kallis on 38 is second).
 

Migara

International Coach
I've heard this quite a few places over the years and I don't know which nincompoop came up with it but they were clearly innumerate. If you use 5 WPM as a cutoff for bowlers with more than 200 test wickets it leaves you with a very short list: Hadlee, Lillee, Murali, Ashwin, Grimmett. Wasim, Lindwall and Walsh didn't even meet 4 WPM.
WPM / WPI is a combination of effectiveness and fitness of a bowler. It should not be the sole criteria for a ATG bowler. WPM doesn't make much sense as well. WPI is a better measure.

WPM / WPI is just another criteria with some weightage given to it on deciding the final outcome.
 

Starfighter

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
WPM / WPI is a combination of effectiveness and fitness of a bowler. It should not be the sole criteria for a ATG bowler. WPM doesn't make much sense as well. WPI is a better measure.

WPM / WPI is just another criteria with some weightage given to it on deciding the final outcome.
Neither are good measures because they're contextual on team composition, tactics, conditions and last of all how defensive the batsmen are (which is why I don't like the big weighting people give to strike rate either).
 

TheJediBrah

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WPM / WPI is a combination of effectiveness and fitness of a bowler. It should not be the sole criteria for a ATG bowler. WPM doesn't make much sense as well. WPI is a better measure.

WPM / WPI is just another criteria with some weightage given to it on deciding the final outcome.
More affected by other factors out of the player's control though, hence why it is a rubbish measure. You're right that WPI is better than WPM, but still neither should be seriously considered as meaningful in any but the most niche of circumstances
 

Migara

International Coach
More affected by other factors out of the player's control though, hence why it is a rubbish measure. You're right that WPI is better than WPM, but still neither should be seriously considered as meaningful in any but the most niche of circumstances
The problem NOT considering WPM would be suddenly trundlers and non full time bowlers will become true all rounders. Walters 48 with bat 29 with ball but less than 1 WPM, Jayasuriya 40 with bat, 34 with ball (<1 WPM), Asif Iqbal 39 with bat, 28 with ball (<1 WPM), Eddie Barlow 46 with bat, 34 with ball (1.3 WPM) suddenly becomes as good as the elite all rounders. Those average differences are as good as in some top class allrounders.
 

TheJediBrah

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The problem NOT considering WPM would be suddenly trundlers and non full time bowlers will become true all rounders.
Of course they won't, because of common sense. The same reason people don't think Andy Ganteaume is the best batsman of all time.
 

OverratedSanity

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Neither are good measures because they're contextual on team composition, tactics, conditions and last of all how defensive the batsmen are (which is why I don't like the big weighting people give to strike rate either).
Most stats are affected by those things. Wpi/wpm is definitely the most clearly affected by team composition though,yes. Since your primary contention is how defensive the batsmen are (which is more a reflection of the era in which the player plays in), then strike rate is still useful as long as you standardise for the era. I always keep that in mind and defend spin bowlers from the 60s who had poor looking strike rates by modern standards. For example, Steyn's WPM and Sr are pretty amazing even accounting for the usual arguments against those stats (bowling competition for wpm and Era for SR). Not sure why that should receive pushback tbh.

Also, my main problem with most of the posts in this thread is that people only judge how "useful" a stat is if the stat can tell you how good a player is? Which is pretty ****ing stupid. Not every stat needs to be a valid measure of player quality to be a useful stat. They can often be an indicator of player style. Strikerate, wicket per match, economy rate all may provide some evidence as to what kind of player he might have been and how aggressive/defensive he was. That's the opposite of useless.
 
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Bolo.

International Captain
Of course they won't, because of common sense. The same reason people don't think Andy Ganteaume is the best batsman of all time.
You recognize the need to apply common sense to stats, even the most basic one, averages. (Which could be rephrased, more objectively, but potentially more problematically, as the need to apply multiple statistical filters).

You regard a measure like WPM/I as essentially invalid. It is objectively as good a measure of contribution as exists, and if filtered, whether by common sense or statisically (which admittedly is complicated) will give a great idea of quality.

Do you really believe it is impossible to filter this down in this way for this stat specifically? We spend most of our time in ATG threads deconstructing stats in bizarrely, nerdy, complicated ways. Why is this any different? If we are engaging in pendantry like average in X place in X timeframe, surely we should be engaging in something more important like this?
 

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