Best team since Waugh/ Ponting’s Australia?

[subshakerz]

Like, even granting how incredibly dumb it is that you just conveniently ignored Australia, it wasnt as if SA were winnings those series in Asia. They won a grand total of 1 series in Asia during that entire period. 2014 vs SL.

India winning 2 series back to back in Australia is a pretty insane accomplishment even ignoring the circumstances of the second one. No asian side had ever won in Aus before 2019.

I didnt include Australia since my point was that India's have a weakness in swinging conditions and brought the counter spinning conditions in the subcontinent. It is clear SA's batters dont suffer in the subcontinent the way Indian batters do in SA/Eng/NZ.

SA did beat Pakistan in 2007 btw.

 

[honestbharani]

So winning doesn't matter anymore. Being better looking side on paper matters. Do you even believe what you write?

Given he watches statsguru than cricket, I think I can. But then again, the stats show India under Kohli won more than RSA under Smith.

 

[sunilz]

W/L ratio doesn't matter. No. Of days spent at no.1 ranking don't matter. What matters is drawing a 2 Test series in Asia .

 

[honestbharani]

**** NZC.

Well, yes.

? I don't understand where you're going with this.

I'm not saying "don't talk about results", but context matters, a lot. The reason we weight certain results way higher than others is because of the strength of the opposition and the difficulty of the conditions. Clearly, contextual strength of opposition matters; so we should take stats which, by definition, completely erase such considerations with a massive grain of salt.

I agree with that part. But you will see the bolded is what statsgurushakerz is running with in this thread.

 

[Xix2565]

So far all I see in this thread is deflection from posters who don't seem willing to discuss any weakness of this Indian side which we can reasonably compare with SA's weaknesses and strengths. That would be a more interesting discussion on weighing relative merits of the two sides.

Rather, it's just looking up W/L stats at home and trying to diminish SA's impressive away record by anyway possible. And frankly it's weird to see cricket fans argue that being really really good at home makes you a better all-round side. I haven't seen that argument until now.

What deflection? Does losing in 2001 to India or the 05 Ashes suddenly make those Australian sides less impressive than Smith's SA? If not then why exactly?

 

[honestbharani]

I will make it clear again though: that's principally because of Bumrah in particular and Siraj more recently, and so the analysis from 2015 posted a few posts ago is entirely irrelevant in my eyes. As far as I'm concerned, this current Indian team was born in 2018 when Bumrah became a permanent fixture of the team.

Fair enough and like I said, as much as I think saltshakerz is full of bollocks, as usual here, I do rate Smith's RSA the second best side I have had the pleasure of watching in test cricket.

 

[subshakerz]

Well, yes.




I agree with that part. But you will see the bolded is what statsgurushakerz is running with in this thread.

Bro, I literally listed the sides and asked that we compare them as teams, but it wasnt taken up.

 

[OverratedSanity]

I didnt include Australia since my point was that India's have a weakness in swinging conditions and brought the counter spinning conditions in the subcontinent. It is clear SA's batters dont suffer in the subcontinent the way Indian batters do in SA/Eng/NZ.

Every single asian side in history has gone to Australia and failed to win. Current India won 2 series back to back. To just ignore that from India's away resume is quite frankly incredibly disingenuous. Why do only "swinging conditions" count now?

 

[honestbharani]

Well yeah because of Steve Bucknor

But yes fair enough. I dont think its close to as impressive as the 2021 series (only the SL win in 2019 compares) but obviously Ill grant you it was amazing nonetheless.

Yeah, the 2008-09 was the real KO blow for that Ponting's Aussie side. That was an amazing achievement. I would certainly put it on par with any other wins by any side in Australia since. BG this year was amazing coz of all the hardships our boys faced, esp. with injuries and basically winning with the C- attack etc. But other than that one, the 08-09 win by RSA was absolutely astounding and so good to watch.

 

[subshakerz]

Every single asian side in history has gone to Australia and failed to win. Current India won 2 series back to back. To just ignore that from India's away resume is quite frankly incredibly disingenuous. Why do only "swinging conditions" count now?

SA also won twice in Australia, and at that point they hadnt won there since readmission.

I was talking about batting weaknesses, not team records. I am trying to compare the sides in terms of their all-round ability. Do you follow?

 

[OverratedSanity]

I will make it clear again though: that's principally because of Bumrah in particular and Siraj more recently, and so the analysis from 2015 posted a few posts ago is entirely irrelevant in my eyes. As far as I'm concerned, this current Indian team was born in 2018 when Bumrah became a permanent fixture of the team.

I think it began a while before that to be honest. Yes Bumrah is amazing. But in 2016/17 England, NZ and Australia all came to India with high quality pace attacks and were outbowled by the Indian pacers. Bumrah wasnt around yet. Shami vs Eng and Yadav vs Aus was where it truly began as far as I'm concerned. Yes the spinners were as dominant as ever but watching the pacers do that well was a serious turning point.

Bumrah was the final big piece, like Philander was for SA in 2011 but India were well on their way before that imo.

 

[anil1405]

Bro, I literally listed the sides and asked that we compare them as teams, but it wasnt taken up.

Bro, can a pace attack lead by Lonwabo Tsotsobe win a test match in Brisbane?

If we put the team sheets of that Brisbane 2021 test here and show it to someone who hasn't watched that game they would laugh if we predict India will win that test.

India have achieved some crazy good results in recent past which have to be given high weightage.

 

[honestbharani]

That would be a more interesting discussion on weighing relative merits of the two sides.

You mean aside from actual winning of cricket games? Sure.

 

[subshakerz]

Fair enough and like I said, as much as I think saltshakerz is full of bolloks, as usual, here, I do rate Smith's RSA the second best side I have had the pleasure of watching in test cricket.

Can I ask, since we are in a rare point of agreement, why you believe they are better than Kohli's India?

 

[PaulLennon]

I think it began a while before that to be honest. Yes Bumrah is amazing. But in 2016/17 England, NZ and Australia all came to India with high quality pace attacks and were outbowled by the Indian pacers. Bumrah wasnt around yet. Shami vs Eng and Yadav vs Aus was where it truly began as far as I'm concerned. Yes the spinners were as dominant as ever but watching the pacers do that well was a serious turning point.

Bumrah was the final big piece, like Philander was for SA in 2011 but India were well on their way before that imo.

Started in 2015 imo. Ishant was showing signs in 2014 and in 15 won Ind a match in SL for the first series win in like 20 years. Then in the 2015 SA series Umesh used reverse swing to close out a few matches. In 2016 Shami/Bhuvi made a comeback in WI. Won us a match in WI and the 2016 Kolkata test against NZ. Was good against England at home and then Umesh closed out the 17 BGT in Dharamsala.

 

[honestbharani]

Every single asian side in history has gone to Australia and failed to win. Current India won 2 series back to back. To just ignore that from India's away resume is quite frankly incredibly disingenuous. Why do only "swinging conditions" count now?

Coz bro, every Indian win and strength does not count. That is how it works in saltshakerz's world.

 

[subshakerz]

Bro, can a pace attack lead by Lonwabo Tsotsobe win a test match in Brisbane?

If we put the team sheets of that Brisbane 2021 test here and show it to someone who hasn't watched that game they would laugh if we predict India will win that test.

India have achieved some crazy good results in recent past which have to be given high weightage.

Yeah but that Brisbane test side was acknowledged as an inferior team, which made their David vs Goliath victory that much more impressive.

 

[vcs]

SA also won twice in Australia, and at that point they hadnt won there since readmission.

I was talking about batting weaknesses, not team records. I am trying to compare the sides in terms of their all-round ability. Do you follow?

SA weren't some infallible batting Gods at home. As has been pointed out, they were rolled over at home by the might of Sreesanth, Dartbhajan, Andrew McDonald/Siddle, Onions, Herath etc to lose multiple Tests in their golden era.

 

[OverratedSanity]

SA also won twice in Australia, and at that point they hadnt won there since readmission.

I was talking about batting weaknesses, not team records. I am trying to compare the sides in terms of their all-round ability. Do you follow?

Ok, so why only batting? SA failed to take 20 wickets in Asia several times in that era because of how flat some of those decks were. Would you say this was a weakness that they failed to take 20 wickets on mutliple occasions in UAE in 2010/2013 and in India 2010/SL 2006 where they got smashed for 700? They were good in Asia but hardly some unstoppable force let's be honest.

 

[honestbharani]

Can I ask, since we are in a rare point of agreement, why you believe they are better than Kohli's India?

The simplest reason is they did it longer and also because, as a rule, I dont rate in progress careers. And this team's career is still very much in progress. For all we know, they could end up at the level of the Windies 80s and Aussies 00s. But at this point, you are comparing a 9 year period with a 6 year period and I give the edge to the side who are done and have done it for longer.

Also, there are always teams that meet their bogey teams. So I wont hold India V NZ against this Indian side and I wont hold RSA V Aus against that RSA side.