Best team since Waugh/ Ponting’s Australia?

[Burner]

SA losing at home to AUS and drawing against IND should be a major black mark against their rating imo. If winning at home is so inconsequential to someone's rating of these teams, then losing at home should carry a proportionate higher weightage. I personally cannot visualise how this Indian batting order could beat that SA side tbf, but somehow this team has a knack for winning games even when they are outmatched so I don't know.

 

[OverratedSanity]

I think the fundamental reason I dislike the W/L analysis stuff is it completely erases, you know, the actual games of cricket that were played and reduces everything to basically nametags. But India didn't beat "AUS", the disembodied nametag, they beat a cricket team, and the actual quality of the cricket team that was beaten and the actual quality of the cricketers involved does actually matter some. That's why everyone here agrees that 2020-21 was a more satisfying series win than 2018-19; the former was a far more impressive achievement because the opposition was stronger. Something raw W/L completely ignores.

This is true but wouldnt this favour India even more in a straight comparison. I dont think anything SA achieved in their run (and they achieved a hell of a lot dont get me wrong) would come close to the 2021 BG series as an achievement.

 

[subshakerz]

It feels weird to rate a side that has been utterly dominant when they toured abroad but didn't have the killer instinct to fight against the sides that gave them stiff competition in home conditions.

SA conditions do give opportunities for away pacers to make inroads.

I think India currently does have a certain je ne sais quoi that makes them quite a bit greater than the sum of their parts, though. On paper they should have been blown away by Australia last year too, and they honestly should probably have lost in England. But they find a way to win, somehow, and that's an intangible quality that "on paper" lineups can't quite capture.

I will make it clear again though: that's principally because of Bumrah in particular and Siraj more recently, and so the analysis from 2015 posted a few posts ago is entirely irrelevant in my eyes. As far as I'm concerned, this current Indian team was born in 2018 when Bumrah became a permanent fixture of the team.

If there is a criticism of the SA side of that era, it's that they were the opposite: they were sometimes less than the some of their parts and the otherwise stellar batting often creaked when put under real pressure; it lacked firefighters and lower-order tenacity to dig them out of holes. Which is why Australia were consistently able to take games off them at home when really SA looked the much better team on paper. That was the era when "downhill skiier" was applied to Kallis and ABdV a lot.

Where was that intangible quality when they were whitewashed in NZ and lost 4-1 to England?

And that SA batting lineup did the opposite. They were the same lineup that resisted pressure. Did you forget the famous Adelaide draw? In fact, away from home, I dont recall them getting out for less than 200 in that period. At home, they did cave to Johnson I recall.

 

[PaulLennon]

Talking about depth, we have guys like Bhuvi, Kuldeep and Jayant Yadav who are not even in test reckoning hovering in our reserves who would be starters for many teams. And these guys actually have international experience and have done well.

Kuldeep in 17 Dharamsala.
Bhuvi in the 16 WI series, 16 NZ series, 18 Wanderers.
Jayant in the 16 Eng series.

 

[sunilz]

Posting 3rd time : please don't discuss AUS/WI here. They were clearly superior side .?

 

[PaulLennon]

SA conditions do give opportunities for away pacers to make inroads.


Where was that intangible quality when they were whitewashed in NZ and lost 4-1 to England?

And that SA batting lineup did the opposite. They were the same lineup that resisted pressure. Did you forget the famous Adelaide draw? In fact, away from home, I dont recall them getting out for less than 200 in that period. At home, they did cave to Johnson I recall.

They lost to Philip Hughes for god's sake at home.

 

[subshakerz]

Even accepting this criteria, can you point out in which conditions was Smith's SA significantly better? England/NZ I guess. Pretty much everywhere else it is at worst even . Do you think this is significant enough to override India's absurd record at home where they've won 26 and lost 2 in the last 7 years?

Would argue that SA did better in Ind/Pak-UAE/Sri Lanka than India in NZ/SA/Eng for a start.

 

[PaulLennon]

Posting 3rd time : please don't discuss AUS/WI here. They were clearly superior side .?

Yup. Although I think India will eventually have a team that rivals those in this decade if the pipeline is maintained. The amount of young guys who have done well - Pant, Gill, Sundar.

 

[Spark]

This is true but wouldnt this favour India even more in a straight comparison. I dont think anything SA achieved in their run (and they achieved a hell of a lot dont get me wrong) would come close to the 2021 BG series as an achievement.

That 2008-9 series win was a huge ****ing deal at the time tbf. Like, chasing down 414 (okay against... not much of an attack, granted) and the massive heist at the MCG were incredibly impressive. Also because it was the first time anyone had won a series against Australia in Australia in the best part of two decades.

They lost to Philip Hughes for god's sake at home.

Be gone with this disrespect.

 

[subshakerz]

that je ne sais quoi is depth. While this India's first XI might not match up against ATG first XI sides, their first 30 is prolly one of the best in history. And considering that in the real world unlike hypothetical matchups, people have injuries etc depth matters. When McGrath got injured in both the 03-04 BGT and 05 Ashes the bowling looked a lot weaker.

BGT 20-21 Bumrah goes out - Siraj picks up the slack
Eng tour 21 Jadeja sits out - Axar picks up the slack
Oval test Shami sits out - Umesh picks up the slack
NZ test series half the team sits out - Saha, Iyer, Agarwal picks up the slack

So in a real world series against Smith et all or even the Aus and WI sides I would expect this Indian side to win matches away (against SA even a series) simply because injuries etc might occur. Home will be easy wins for Ind against all these teams.

You mean this Indian team that lost in 2018 in SA will beat Smith's team there?

 

[sunilz]

Yup. Although I think India will eventually have a team that rivals those in this decade if the pipeline is maintained. The amount of young guys who have done well - Pant, Gill, Sundar.

We thought the same in 2011 after ODI WC and then horror show started.
How old are you ? Honest question.

 

[Spark]

Yeah that depth thing is just motivated reasoning on steroids. Depth has nothing to do with why they managed to psychologically recover after Adelaide and why they managed to retrieve a totally lost position at Lord's. The je ne sais quoi I mentioned is more an extremely impressive level of mental strength coupled with a relentless fast bowling attack. Not "how good is the 30th best Indian player".

 

[PaulLennon]

You mean the Indian team that lost in 2018 in SA will beat Smith's team there?

You take the team that played a year later in Aus and they would beat Smith's team. That was Bumrah's debut series and his wayward lengths in his debut innings were what led SA to get a good score in Cape Town. You put even the 2nd innings Bumrah there and Ind win that series.

Smith's SA dropped tests against Sreesanth ffs.

 

[subshakerz]

SA losing at home to AUS and drawing against IND should be a major black mark against their rating imo. If winning at home is so inconsequential to someone's rating of these teams, then losing at home should carry a proportionate higher weightage. I personally cannot visualise how this Indian batting order could beat that SA side tbf, but somehow this team has a knack for winning games even when they are outmatched so I don't know.

Would you agree India getting whitewashed to NZ and losing 4-1 to England are blackmarks? Do great teams get whitewashed or lose 4 out of 5 tests to anybody?

Like I said, I would prefer a team that is bulletproof abroad but maybe have lost a series or two at home over 9 years vs a team that is unbeatable at home but quite beatable away.

 

[PaulLennon]

We thought the same in 2011 after ODI WC and then horror show started.
How old are you ? Honest question.

Naah, the pipeline wasn't good then.
Kohli et all debuted post the series in the 11-15 period. Right now mostly due to injuries et all the new gen is debuting while the old gen is in it's last stages.

Also 15-now India way way better than 07-11 India.

Also can't discount how much better facilities/infrastructure in Indian cricket has become.

 

[anil1405]

Taking an alternate perspective, how awesome it is for a side to carry an incredibly fragile middle order yet dominate test cricket the way they did in last 3 years?

Has any team ever achieved so much success with 3 middle order players averaging mid 20s for a substantial period?

 

[Spark]

Eh, personally, just speaking as a cricket fan and without any pretense to objective historical analysis at all, I'd muuuuch rather a side that was strong at home first and foremost. Getting rolled at home sucks, especially if you have the misfortune to be watching it in person.

 

[PaulLennon]

Would you agree India getting whitewashed to NZ and losing 4-1 to England are blackmarks?

Like I said, I would prefer a team that is bulletproof abroad but maybe have lost a series or two at home over 9 years vs a team that is unbeatable at home but quite beatable away.

Yes they are.

Smith's team wasn't "bulletproof" abroad. They drew quite a few.

And they didnt just lose series, they drew a few as well at home.

And Ind isn't "quite beatable" away. They are beatable by NZ in Eng/NZ. Anywhere else against any team, they start favorites.

 

[sunilz]

SA have won 1 Test series at home in last 17 years against AUS/ENG. No amount of overseas victory would compensate for that.

 

[OverratedSanity]

That 2008-9 series win was a huge ****ing deal at the time tbf. Like, chasing down 414 (okay against... not much of an attack, granted) and the massive heist at the MCG were incredibly impressive. Also because it was the first time anyone had won a series against Australia in Australia in the best part of two decades.

Well yeah because of Steve Bucknor

But yes fair enough. I dont think its close to as impressive as the 2021 series (only the SL win in 2019 compares) but obviously Ill grant you it was amazing nonetheless.