Best team since Waugh/ Ponting’s Australia?

[Teja.]

And somehow this Indian team can't take advantage of dead pitches?

Yes, that is a particular weakness. The current Indian batting line up sucks at batting time even on flatter tracks against good bowling away from home.

 

[anil1405]

On paper and looking at the form of the Indian middle order in the last 2.5-3 years it's easy to say South Africa are the next best after Waugh/Ponting's Aus. But the story goes beyond that.

Even good number of Indian fans are surprised by the progress India has made in the last 3-4 years. India was ranked top team for 5 consecutive years if I am not wrong. What has been the biggest plus point for India is the fighting spirit which won't reflect on paper or even in scorecards.

I mean to beat Australia at Brisbane with a team of...

Rohit
Gill
Pujara
Rahane
Agarwal
Pant
Sundar
Thakur
Saini
Siraj
Natarajan

....is no luck but a reflection of the teams ability to not give up under any situation.

Although I am not a fan of Kohli, the fighting spirit he and the team management instilled in test cricket has helped India achieve new heights.

 

[TheJediBrah]

It's weird to see people put a constant disclaimer that McGrath was not present in the 03 series. Obviously that was important but Sachin was injured with his tennis elbow issues and didn't play most of the 2004/05 India series as well yet you don't see people constantly specifying that it was a 'Sachin-less India' that Australia beat.

The fixation is a bit weird.

lol firstly, all the ****ing time you do

secondly, India's batting covered for Sachin a lot better than Australia's bowling could cover for McGrath so it probably made a bigger difference. But fair enough to equate the 2 situations with each other

 

[Xix2565]

It's weird to see people put a constant disclaimer that McGrath was not present whenever mentioning the 03 series. Obviously that was important but Sachin was injured with his tennis elbow issues and didn't play most of the 2004/05 India series as well yet you don't see people constantly specifying that it was a 'Sachin-less India' that Australia beat.

The fixation is a bit weird.

At least we won there the 2nd time with Lord Thakur and co to disabuse this notion for that series.

 

[Kilowatt]

And somehow this Indian team can't take advantage of dead pitches? That's my question to the rest tbh, not just you.

No. Flat conditions will only neutralize Indian bowlers who are so conditions dependent (just look at their poor record in home tests), but Indian batting is fully defined by their 30 averaging middle order bats (nvm that India beat a full strength Australia with those three batsman averaging in the 30's).

 

[Test fan]

just checked record of Smith test team guess what they lost Thrice 2005/06, 2008/09, and 2013/14 to Australia at home . Kohli test team is miles Better than overhyped Smith team. Smith team never defeated England or Australia in a series at home, and lost test matches at home routinely but Kohli team is ruthless at home

 

[Xix2565]

Yes, that is a particular weakness. The current Indian batting line up sucks at batting time even on flatter tracks against good bowling away from home.

What batting lineup hasn't had bad games before? Waugh's Aussies got ran through by Agarkar, while Ponting's Aussies got choked out after Clarke's 6-9 and got beaten at Perth by Irfan Pathan and co. Doesn't suddenly mean we think they were bad. India's batting lineup also has changed quite a bit so I find it strange to feel this way about an Indian lineup that at home can consistently smash teams with big scores and make smaller scores look big.

 

[Teja.]

What batting lineup hasn't had bad games before? Waugh's Aussies got ran through by Agarkar, while Ponting's Aussies got choked out after Clarke's 6-9 and got beaten at Perth by Irfan Pathan and co. Doesn't suddenly mean we think they were bad. India's batting lineup also has changed quite a bit so I find it strange to feel this way about an Indian lineup that at home can consistently smash teams with big scores and make smaller scores look big.

Please be realistic. This middle order in current form is not competing with Australian ATG side in Australia.

 

[Spark]

I find it strange to feel this way about an Indian lineup that at home can consistently smash teams with big scores and make smaller scores look big.

When was the last time this actually happened with any consistency against a good team? 2018? 2019? That absolutely does not count as "the current team".

And, you know, the last Test India played on a batting-friendly pitch at home, it lost. To England. Why? Because on a flat pitch England was able to put on a huge first innings score and India couldn't match it.

 

[Xix2565]

Please be realistic. This middle order in current form is not competing with Australian ATG side in Australia.

View attachment 30304

Again, 2 years of Tests vs over 20 years of Tests for Waugh/Ponting. Kohli's India deserves much more time than that to be fair.

 

[Xix2565]

When was the last time this actually happened with any consistency against a good team? 2018? 2019? That absolutely does not count as "the current team".

And, you know, the last Test India played on a batting-friendly pitch at home, it lost. To England.

Again, Adelaide 2003/Perth 2008. And that Chennai Test we lost was the 2nd in 9 years going back to Dhoni. These are hardly points you want to make.

 

[TheJediBrah]

Again, 2 years of Tests vs over 20 years of Tests for Waugh/Ponting. Kohli's India deserves much more time than that to be fair.

And you're using that as a point in favour of Kohli's India? This is hilarious

 

[Spark]

Again, Adelaide 2003/Perth 2008. And that Chennai Test we lost was the 2nd in 9 years going back to Dhoni. These are hardly points you want to make.

Wtf is this even meant to mean. Yes, Pujara and Rahane are definitely going to score double hundreds in Australia despite apparently no longer being deserving of a place in the XI because Dravid did so once.

You don't get to arbitrarily rope in as long as time period as you need to make your point, when talking about the current side we focus on the current players in their current form. Otherwise this will become a meaningless whack-a-mole game which can only end up being a hodgepodge mess of a team that never took the field in a real cricket game. If you want to point out how outstanding the current Indian pace bowling attack is, which fair it really is, then you also have to take how poor the middle order is. It's a package deal.

 

[centurymaker]

The reason this middle order is currently not scoring big is because the pitches aren't flat at all -anywhere they have played recently, including India. In fact, they have been playing in bowler friendly conditions.

Give them the roads of yesteryears or the flat pitches from India South Africa series in 2019, you will see BIG scores from the Indian batsmen again, most of their averages for the year will be 50+, no doubt in my mind.

Check this out

South African cricket team in India in 2019–20 - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Late 2019 on flat pitches, the same team, posting totals of 502/7, 323/4, 601/5 & 497/9. This was against Philander, Rabada, Nortje and co.

 

[Kilowatt]

There's no need to get hung up on one posters comment about the 'current' Indian team whose 'current' records will conveniently only be extended to the period where they can be shown to be poor.

The OP asked the question about Kohli's India. Kohli's India has been the most dominant home side that has ever played the game. At home they will comfortably smash peak Aus and peak WI. Away they will be competitive. That is not a bad record to have at all.

 

[Spark]

The reason this middle order is currently not scoring big is because the pitches aren't flat at all -anywhere they have played recently, including India. In fact, they have been playing in bowler friendly conditions.

Give them the roads of yesteryears or the flat pitches from India South Africa series in 2019, you will see BIG scores from the Indian batsmen again, most of their averages for the year will be 50+, no doubt in my mind.

Check this out

South African cricket team in India in 2019–20 - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Late 2019 on flat pitches, the same team, posting totals of 502/7, 323/4, 601/5 & 497/9. This was against Philander, Rabada, Nortje and co.

That's exactly why I brought up that Chennai Test though. Given the opportunity to make a big score they... didn't, and once again the lower order bailed them out. They're in legitimately poor form regardless of conditions. Pujara in particular, it doesn't really matter what the conditions are, the bloke can't get it off the square at the moment.

 

[TheJediBrah]

The reason this middle order is currently not scoring big is because the pitches aren't flat at all -anywhere they have played recently, including India. In fact, they have been playing in bowler friendly conditions.

Guess the bowling isn't actually as good as we thought then

 

[centurymaker]

So this Indian batting crisis is largely a reflection of the home pitches they guys are playing on. Yes they have somewhat regressed as batsmen recently, but not to the extent that they are only 'half' as good as they were before (averaging in the 20s). If pitches in India, in particular, were more standard/flatter, these guys would average from 35-45+ in all likelihood

 

[Teja.]

Again, 2 years of Tests vs over 20 years of Tests for Waugh/Ponting. Kohli's India deserves much more time than that to be fair.

Basically I feel you are conflating two different eras. The era in which our 3-5 were firing on all cylinders and we were scoring 700 for fun at home did not have our current pace attack or Ashwin being a crucial bowler away from home and we lost in England/SA.

Now Bumrah has become an elite operator, Siraj is an incredible prospect, Ashwin is making big contributions away from home and we have undoubtedly our best bowling attack ever. Rohit has also become world class. However, our middle order is averaging 25 with the bat.

You cannot have your cake and eat it too by picking batting from the first period and bowling from the second. Pick one.

 

[Xix2565]

And you're using that as a point in favour of Kohli's India? This is hilarious

I'm not the one hyperfocused on using 2 years alone to judge a batting lineup as bad and avoid doing the same for other lineups. Pick a set timeframe for both and do the comparisons fairlt, if India is worse they're worse by actual data, not some random wishful thinking.

Wtf is this even meant to mean. Yes, Pujara and Rahane are definitely going to score double hundreds in Australia despite apparently no longer being deserving of a place in the XI because Dravid did so once.

You don't get to arbitrarily rope in as long as time period as you need to make your point, when talking about the current side we focus on the current players in their current form. Otherwise this will become a meaningless whack-a-mole game which can only end up being a hodgepodge mess of a team that never took the field in a real cricket game. If you want to point out how outstanding the current Indian pace bowling attack is, which fair it really is, then you also have to take how poor the middle order is. It's a package deal.

This isn't being done for the past sides you're comparimg them to though? @Chrish is also comparing eras not specific lineups with arbitrarily rigid definitions either. Our bowling lineup hasn't suddenly lost 3-4 years of good form just because you want to point out the GMOI are bad right now. Either you make things specific for both sides or you give credit for their past success with the bat while acknowledging that they are bad now.